HC Deb 03 August 1972 vol 842 cc953-6
Q4. Mr. Redmond

asked the Prime Minister if he will place in the Library a copy of his public speech of 19th July to the Royal Commonwealth Society on the subject of Northern Ireland.

Q3. Mr. Leslie Huckfield

asked the Prime Minister whether he will place in the Library a copy of his public speech at the Royal Commonwealth Society on 19th July on Northern Ireland.

The Prime Minister

I did so on 19th July, Sir.

Mr. Redmond

Has my right hon. Friend had any firm reaction from the people of Ulster to the expression which he gave in that speech to his determination that there is no question of a united Ireland until there is clear evidence of a firm majority for it in the Province? What more can we back benchers do to assure the people of Ulster that very few hon. Members would even consider changing the border in the foreseeable future?

The Prime Minister

The undertaking to the people of Northern Ireland is on the Statute Book, and it is an undertaking of all three parties. The best that any hon. Member can do is to reinforce that undertaking instead of casting doubts on it.

Mr. Rose

Notwithstanding the current military situation, will the Prime Minister confirm that the only long-term solution for Northern Ireland is a political one? Will he bring into talks all sections of the community who can help in ending the violence and whose influence counts? Will he also allow direct talks with the Republic of Ireland, which has an important rôle to play?

The Prime Minister

In reply to the first part of the question, that is the objective of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, who has invited all parties, and representatives of all sections of the communities, in Northern Ireland to take part in talks with him. I personally assured the Prime Minister of the Republic almost a year ago that on any matters affecting the United Kingdom as a whole and the Republic we should, of course, remain in the closest contact and that we could always have discussions with him either directly or through diplomatic channels. This remains the position. As I told the House on Tuesday, I was gratified by what he said in the Dail about the close relations between our two countries

Captain Orr

Is my right hon. Friend aware that two things would greatly restore the confidence of the people of Ulster? One is to proceed early with the promised referendum, and the other is for my right hon. Friend to say that he has had a firm assurance from Mr. Lynch that he will not permit his territory to be used as a safe haven for those who escaped after the admirable operations of last weekend.

The Prime Minister

Mr. Lynch has made it public in the last 48 hours that he will deal with illegal activities in the Republic of any kind whatever. I am sure that he will keep to his word in this.

Mr. Harold Wilson

Following the answers given by the Secretary of State this afternoon on the question of arms, which appear to show an encouraging degree of willingness to look into this problem, will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that before the House rises this matter is dealt with by the Government and a statement made? Our troops are placed in an impossible situation. There are arms on both sides, legally held in many cases, and it is clear that there are too many people on both sides in Northern Ireland who cannot be trusted with arms in this situation. There have been several private assassinations, and yesterday there was the deplorable shooting of workers on their way to work, which the whole House condemns. Will this matter be looked at again?

The Prime Minister

Yes, Sir. My right hon. Friend and the Government are looking into this matter. We have done so from time to time and we are looking at it again in the new circumstances. The right hon. Gentleman from his past experience will realise the acute problem that arises from unlicensed arms. It is not a question of asking for them to be turned in but of getting hold of them. We will look at the question of licensed arms, but we should not underestimate the real problem, which is that of the unlicensed arms.

Mr. Wilson

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when this idea was first put forward in April, 1971 we had in mind illegal arms? If everyone, except in most stringent circumstances, is forbidden to have a weapon, it is very much easier to conduct searches. So many searches, inevitably, have been of Catholic homes, and it is important that there should be absolute impartiality. The troops want to exercise impartiality and to round up any arms that should not be there and, as I suggested the other day, there should be a mandatory prison sentence for anyone found in possession of illegal arms—and they would all be illegal if gun licences were revoked.

The Prime Minister

I assure the right hon. Gentleman that the troops will be impartial in their search for arms. Wherever there is evidence that there are arms, they will go after them. I think the right hon. Gentleman would agree that widespread indiscriminate searches for arms are damaging to relations with the civilian population. This matter is being looked at and we shall endeavour to give the right hon. Gentleman an answer before the House rises.

Mr. Thorpe

I accept that the question of unregistered arms is the most important single factor, but is the Prime Minister aware that the number of arms per thousand of the population is higher in Northern Ireland than it is anywhere else in Western Europe, and that it is precisely in such a situation of extreme tenson, where tempers are apt to flare up quickly that registered arms also should be handed in, so that the number of persons who have their own private armouries is kept to an absolute minimum?

The Prime Minister

I am not prepared to accept the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman about the relationship between arms in Northern Ireland and in the rest of Europe, or the rest of this country. My right hon. Friend the former Home Secretary gave figures to the House, and I think it is well known that the great majority of weapons are held in the rural areas of Northern Ireland on roughly the same basis as they are held in rural areas in this country. The real need is to bring in all arms which can be used by the communities against each other, and so achieve the Government's purpose of removing the means of violence.

Rev. Ian Paisley

Will the Prime Minister tell the House whether there is evidence that any of the murders during the campaign of terror were committed by persons using licensed weapons? Are not the regulations for air pistols in Northern Ireland slightly different from those applying in the rest of the United Kingdom, in that air pistols are included as licensed weapons?

The Prime Minister

I should like to look into the last point. As far as I am aware, there is no evidence that the murders were committed by people holding licensed weapons.