HC Deb 24 April 1972 vol 835 cc1129-35
Mr. John Fraser (Norwood)

I beg to move Amendment No. 3, in page 4, line 16, leave out paragraph (b).

The purpose of the Amendment and of the Amendments associated with it—Nos. 4, 6, 10, 11 and 12—is to deal with three subsidies: rising cost subsidy, transition subsidy and rent rebate subsidy. All three have this in common that they will be so reduced by the Government that the Government's share in the first year will be 90 per cent., in the second year, 85 per cent., in the third year 80 per cent., and in the fourth year 75 per cent. Our purpose may not seem absolutely clear, but that is because, due to the Money Resolution, we have not been able to table an Amendment saying that the subsidy ought to be borne 100 per cent. by the Government. That, however, is our purpose.

Our first reason for tabling the Amendments is that the prime and central responsibility for relieving poverty—and that is what the rent rebate subsidy is all about; low income and the ability of ordinary families to have accommodation—rests with central Government. That is what every General Electionis fought about. But what we have in the Bill is premeditated reduction of subsidies by the Government to 90 per cent. in the first year reducing to 75 per cent. after four years. Eventually, the Government take the power to reduce their share to as little as 60 per cent.

So the Government make a premeditated withdrawal from the war on bad and inadequate housing and premeditated withdrawal from the battle against poverty. It is a withdrawal from the war which most Governments are expected to wage with every weapon at their command. We have here a reduction in subsidy which is precisely calculated by mathematical percentages. During the last election the Prime Minister and others spoke eloquently about the need to relieve poverty, but when we see a Bill which deals with an aspect of poverty we see a shrugging of that responsibility by mathematically worked-out timetable.

Our second reason for objecting to the withdrawal provision and for saying that the subsidy must remain at 100 per cent. is that the Bill was devised to reduce subsidies on housing by £200 million in the first five years and by £300 million within ten years. The White Paper expressly says so.

Our third reason is the need to expose the hypocrisy and deceit of that paragraph in the White Paper which talks about the financial independence of local authorities, and says that the Government cannot subsidise to the extent of 100 per cent. as that would undermine local authorities'financial independence. That is utter cant and hypocrisy. Under the Bill, local authorities have no control over their level of rents and precious little control over the level of rebates. Rent and rebate levels are dictated. We therefore say that since the local authorities are to have no independence at all in this respect the subsidy must run at 100 per cent.

Finally, we say that if the subsidies are withdrawn as shown in the Bill, a heavier and heavier burden will fall on the ratepayers. It is the responsibility of the Government and not of the ratepayers, who are already extremely hard pressed, to provide adequate housing and relieve poverty. I believe that the Amendment will have the support of the local authority associations. I am sure that when the effect of the withdrawal of the subsidies is realised by the ratepayers it will have the support of them all. And I believe that it will have the support of the House as well.

Mr. Amery

I have hardly been left time to develop what might be called a powerful argument in reply to the hon. Member for Norwood (Mr. John Fraser).

It is a fundamental principle of the Bill that subsidies are for people. In my view and that of my right hon. and hon. Friends a subsidy system should not be judged by the amount of subsidy going to a particular local authority. What matters is whether the subsidy meets the need of individuals. If an authority can balance its accounts by charging fall

Division No. 143.] AYES [7.0 p.m.
Abse, Leo Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Albu, Austen Dempsey, James Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Doig, Peter Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)
Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis) Dormand, J. D. John, Brynmor
Armstrong, Ernest Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire. E.) Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)
Ashley, Jack Douglas-Mann, Bruce Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)
Ashton, Joe Duffy, A. E. P. Jones, Dan (Burnley)
Atkinson, Norman Dunnett, Jack Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)
Bagler, Gordon A. T Eadie, Alex Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)
Barnes, Michael Edelman, Maurice Kaufman, Gerald
Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) Edwards Robert (Bilston) Kelley, Richard
Barnett, Joel (Heywood and Royton) Edwards, William (Merioneth) Kerr, Russell
Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgewood Ellis, Tom Kinnock, Nell
Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton) English, Michael Lambton, Antony
Bidwell, Sydney Evans, Fred Latham, Arthur
Bishop, E. S. Ewing, Henry Leadbitter, Ted
Blenkinsop, Arthur Fisher,Mrs. Doris(B'ham,Ladywood) Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Boardman, H. (Leigh) Fitch, Alan (Wigan) Leonard, Dick
Booth, Albert Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) Lestor, Miss Joan
Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold
Bradley, Tom Foley, Maurice Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)
Broughton, Sir Alfred Foot, Michael Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) Ford, Ben Lipton, Marcus
Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) Forrester, John Lomas, Kenneth
Buchan, Norman Fraser, John (Norwood) Loughlin, Charles
Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) Galpern, Sir Myer Lyon, Alexander W. (York)
Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) Garrett, W. E. Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson
Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James Gilbert, Dr. John McBride, Neil
Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.) Ginsburg, David (Dewsbury) McCartney, Hugh
Cant, R. B. Golding, John McElhone, Frank
Carmichael, Neil Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C. McGuire, Michael
Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield) Gourlay, Harry Mackenzie, Gregor
Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles) Grant, George (Morpeth) Mackie, John
Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara Grant, John D. (Islington, E.) Mackintosh, John P.
Clark, David (Colne Valley) Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)
Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.) Hamilton, James (Bothwell) McNamara, J. Kevin
Cohen, Stanley Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)
Concannon, J. D Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill) Marks, Kenneth
Conlan, Bernard Hardy, Peter Marquand, David
Corbet, Mrs. Freda Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) Marsden, F.
Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.) Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith Marshall, Dr. Edmund
Cronin, John Hattersley, Roy Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy
Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis Mayhew, Christopher
Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.) Hooson, Emlyn Meacher, Michael
Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven) Horam, John Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Dalyell, Tam Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas Mendelson, John
Davidson, Arthur Howell, Denis (Small Heath) Mikardo, Ian
Davies, Denzill (Llanelly) Huckfield, Leslie Millan, Bruce
Davies, Ifor (Gower) Hughes, Mark (Durham) Miller, Dr. M. S.
Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.) Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.) Milne, Edward
Davis, Terry (Bromsgrove) Hughes, Roy (Newport) Mitchell, R. C. (S'hampton, Itchen)
Deakins, Eric Hunter, Adam Molloy, William
de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey Irvine,Rt.Hn.SirArthur(Edge Hill) Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)
Delargy, H. J. Janner, Greville Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

rents to those tenants who can afford them—and by granting rebates to those who cannot—it does not need a subsidy. In that situation all legitimate needs are met without a subsidy. Subsidies are justified only where they are needed to balance the books.

It being Seven o'clock, Mr. Deputy Speaker proceeded, pursuant to the Standing Order No. 43 (Business Committee) and the Orders [13th March and this day], to put forthwith theQuestion already proposed from the Chair.

Question put, That the Amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 242, Noes 269.

Morris, Rt Hn. John (Aberavon) Rhodes, Geoffrey Swain, Thomas
Moyle, Roland Roberts, Albert (Normanton) Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)
Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick Robertson, John (Paisley) Thompson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)
Murray, Ronald King Roderick, Caerwyn E. (Br'c'n&R'dnor) Tinn, James
Oakes, Gordon Roper, John Tomney, Frank
Ogden, Eric Rose, Paul B. Torney, Tom
O'Halloran, Michael Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock) Tuck, Raphael
O'Malley, Brian Rowlands, Edward Urwin, T. W.
Oram, Bert Sandelson, Neville Varley, Eric G.
Orbach, Maurice Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne) Wainwright, Edwin
Orme, Stanley Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney) Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)
Oswald, Thomas Short, Rt. Kn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne) Wallace, George
Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton) Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton, N.E.) Watkins, David
Padley, Walter Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford) Weitzman, David
Paget, R. T. Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich) Wellbeloved, James
Palmer, Arthur Sillars, James Wells, William (Walsall, N.)
Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles Silverman, Julius White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)
Pardoe, John Skinner, Dennis Whitehead, Phillip
Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange Small, William Whitlock, William
Pavitt, Laurie Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.) Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Pendry, Tom Spearing, Nigel Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)
Pentland, Norman Spriggs, Leslie Williams, W. T. (Warrington)
Perry, Ernest G. Stallard, A. W. Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)
Prescott, John Steel, David Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)
Price, J. T. (Westhoughton) Stoddart, David (Swindon) Woof, Robert
Price, William (Rugby) Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Rankin, John Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. Mr. James A. Dunn and
Reed, D. (Sedgefield) Summerskill Hn Dr shirley Mr. Joseph Harper.
NOES
Adley, Robert d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry Hawkins, Paul
Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) d'Avigdor-Goldsmid. Maj.-Gen. James Hay, John
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) Dean, Paul Hayhoe, Barney
Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. Heseltine, Michael
Archer, Jeffrey (Louth) Digby, Simon Wingfield Hicks, Robert
Astor, John Dixon, Piers Higgins, Terence L.
Atkins, Humphrey Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec Hiley, Joseph
Awdry, Daniel Drayson, G. B. Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)
Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone) du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Balniel, Rt. Hn. Lord Dykes, Hugh Holland, Philip
Batsford, Brian Eden, Sir John Holt, Miss Mary
Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) Hordern, Peter
Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport) Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) Hornby, Richard
Benyon, W. Elliott, R. W. (Nc'tle-upon-Tyne,N.) Hornsby-Smith. Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia
Berry, Hn. Anthony Emery, Peter Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)
Biffen, John Eyre, Reginald Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)
Biggs-Davison, John Farr, John Hunt, John
Blaker, Peter Fell, Anthony Iremonger, T. L.
Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) Fenner, Mrs. Peggy Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)
Body, Richard Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead) James, David
Boscawen, Robert Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton) Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Bossom, Sir Clive Fletcher-Cooke, Charles
Bowden, Andrew Fookes, Miss Janet Jennings, J. C. (Burton)
Bray, Ronald Fortescue, Tim Jessel, Toby
Brinton, Sir Tatton Fowler, Norman Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)
Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher Fox, Marcus Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Fry, Peter Jopling, Michael
Bruce-Gardyne, J. Galbraith, Hn. T. G. Kaberry, Sir Donald
Bryan, Paul Gardner, Edward Kellett-Bowman, Mrs. Elaine
Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus,N&M) Gibson-Watt, David Kershaw, Anthony
Buck, Antony Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) Kimball, Marcus
Bullus, Sir Eric Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)
Burden, F. A. Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Butler, Adam (Bosworth) Goodhart, Philip Kinsey, J. R.
Campbell, Rt. Hn.G.(Moray&Nairn) Goodhew, Victor Knight, Mrs. Jill
Carlisle, Mark Gower, Raymond Knox, David
Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.) Lane, David
Cary, Sir Robert Gray, Hamish Langford-Holt, Sir John
Chapman, Sydney Green, Alan Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry
Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher Grieve, Percy Le Merchant, Spencer
Chichester-Clark, R. Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
Churchill, W. S. Grylls, Michael Longden, Sir Gilbert
Clark, William (Surrey, E.) Gummer, J. Selwyn Loveridge, John
Clegg, Walter Gurden, Harold Luce, R. N.
Cooke, Robert Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley) McAdden, Sir Stephen
Coombs, Derek Hall, John (Wycombe) MacArthur, Ian
Cooper, A. E. Hall-Davis, A. G. F. McCrindle, R. A.
Corlield, Rt. Hn. Frederick Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) McLaren, Martin
Cormack, Patrick Hannam, John (Exeter) Maclean, Sir Fitzroy
Costain, A. P. Harrison, Brian (Maldon) Macmillan, Rt. Hn. Maurice (Farnham)
Critchley, Julian Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) McNair-Wilson, Michael
Crouch, David Haselhurst, Alan McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)
Crowder, F. P. Hastings, Stephen Maddan, Martin
Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford) Havers, Michael Madel, David
Marten, Neil Quennell, Miss J. M. Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)
Mather, Carol Raison, Timothy Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)
Maude, Angus Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James Tebbit, Norman
Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter Temple, John M.
Mawby, Ray Redmond, Robert Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.) Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)
Meyer, Sir Anthony Rees, Peter (Dover) Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)
Mills, Peter (Torrington) Rees-Davies, W. R. Tilney, John
Miscampbell, Norman Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David Trafford, Dr. Anthony
Mitchell, Lt.-Col. C. (Aberdeenshire, W) Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon Trew, Peter
Moate, Roger Ridley, Hn. Nicholas Tugendhat, Christopher
Money, Ernle Ridsdale, Julian Turton, Rt. Hn. Sir Robin
Monks, Mrs. Connie Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.) van Straubenzee, W. R.
Monro, Hector Roberts, Wyn (Conway) Vaughan, Dr. Gerard
Montgomery, Fergus Rost, Peter Vickers, Dame Joan
More, Jasper Russell, Sir Ronald Waddington, David
Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm St. John-Stevas, Norman Walder, David (Clitheroe)
Morrison, Charles Sandys, Rt. Hn. D. Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)
Mudd, David Scott, Nicholas Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek
Murton, Oscar Sharples, Richard Walters, Dennis
Nabarro, Sir Gerald Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitbv) Ward, Dame Irene
Neave, Airey Shelton, William (Clapham) Warren, Kenneth
Normanton, Tom Sinclair, Sir George Weatherill, Bernard
Onslow, Cranley Skeet, T. H. H. Wells, John (Maidstone)
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington) White, Roger (Gravesend)
Osborn, John Soref, Harold Wiggin, Jerry
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.) Speed, Keith Wilkinson, John
Page, Graham (Crosby) Spence, John Winterton, Nicholas
Page, John (Harrow, W.) Sproat, Iain Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard
Parkinson, Cecil Stainton Keith Woodnutt, Mark
Percival, Ian Stanbrook, Ivor Worsley, Marcus
Pike, Miss Mervyn Stewart-Smith, Geoffrey (Belper) Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.
Pink, R. Bonner Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh. W.) Younger, Hn. George
Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.
Price, David (Eastleigh) Stokes, John TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L. Stuttaford, Dr. Tom Mr. John Stradling Thomas and
Proudfoot, Wilfred Tapsell, Peter Mr. Kenneth Clark.
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

Question accordingly negatived.

It being after Seven o'clock, Mr. Deputy Speaker proceeded, pursuant to Standing Order No. 43 (Business Committee) and the Orders [13th March and this day] to put forthwith the Questions on Amendments, moved by a Member of the Government, of which notice liad been given, to that part of the Bill to be concluded at Seven o'clock.

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