HC Deb 27 October 1971 vol 823 cc1711-4
12. Mr. Leonard

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what estimate he has made of the cost to local authorities of administration of the rent rebate scheme and the private rent allowances, proposed in the White Paper, "Fair Deal for Housing".

Mr. Channon

I must ask the hon. Member to await the publication of the necessary Bill.

Mr. Leonard

Is the Minister aware that in its assessment of the White Paper the London Borough of Havering estimates that it will have to employ 20 additional people to administer this scheme? As it is being forced upon local authorities against their will by the Government should not the entire cost be borne by the Exchequer?

Mr. Channon

I am surprised at that, because the London Borough of Havering at present administers a rent rebate scheme.

Mr. Crosland

Is the Minister not aware that the whole local authority world feels particularly strongly about the cost of administering private rent allowances falling on them and, in three or four years' time, 10 per cent. of the cost of the allowances themselves? Does he consider it right that the Government should impose on local authorities so much of the burden for dealing with poverty?

Mr. Channon

I am surprised that the right hon. Gentleman imagines that Central Government should have further powers to take over the complete administration of the rent rebate and rent allowance schemes. In order to help local authorities with the transition to the new scheme—which all in the House should welcome—the Government will pay 100 per cent. of cost of the rent allowance scheme in the first four years. I do not consider that an ungenerous situation.

21. Mr. Allason

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what representations he has received from new town development corporations following the issue of his White Paper, Fair Deal for Housing, Cmnd. 4728.

Mr. Amery

I am in touch with the development corporations, the Commission for the New Towns and the New Towns Association. In discussions about implementation of the White Paper's proposals, no particular problems have emerged.

Mr. Allason

Has my right hon. Friend carried out any examination of the likely effects on rents in new towns, and, in particular, does he take the view that the vast majority of new town tenants will receive generous rent allowances in consequence of the new legislation?

Mr. Amery

Certainly, a number will, though in some of the new towns rents are already close to fair rent levels.

Mr. Denis Howell

Is the Minister aware of the growing social problem in the new towns, which will be worsened by his new policy in "Fair Deal for Housing," in that, whereas decisions about rebates are now made quarterly, under his proposals they will be made half-yearly, which will mean that people are asked to pay rents which in many cases bear no relation to their income if it has radically changed during the previous six months?

Mr. Amery

If any difficulties of that sort arise there will always be possibilities of repayment and adjustment afterwards.

27. Mr. Meacher

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many persons will be subject to the fair rent procedure when the Government's White Paper proposals are fully implemented.

Mr. Amery

About 5 million local authority and new town tenancies and about 2½ million private and housing association tenancies will be covered by the fair rent principle in England and Wales.

Mr. Meacher

Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that up to 15 million persons—between a quarter and a third of the entire population—will for the first time be made subject to means test. [An HON. MEMBER: "Nonsense."] That is precisely what the Minister has just said—and that that means five times more working families being subject to means tests than previously were subject to all other means tests put together—all 3,000 of them? How is that consistent with making people stand on their own two feet and be independent?

Mr. Amery

The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that 60 per cent. of local authorities previously operated rent rebate schemes which involved a means test, and were encouraged to do so by the previous Administration.

Mr. Fry

Does my right hon. Friend realise that despite what the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Meacher) said, many elderly small landlords and landladies will be enternally grateful to him for the legislation, because at long last they will receive a decent return on the property they own?

Mr. Amery

Not only will justice be done to the people that my hon. Friend has mentioned but the housing stock of the country will be improved, and for the first time tenants in the private sector will receive a rebate in the shape of an allowance.

Mr. Crosland

The right hon. Gentleman has wholly failed to answer my hon. Friend's question. Is it not the case that under the new proposal, for the first time a majority tenants are liable to be means tested and that for the first time, as compared with any existing means test, we shall have literally millions of people' subjected to a means test?

Mr. Amery

The right hon. Gentleman was a member of an Administration which produced a rate rebate scheme which was also subject to means tests. It is no good raising the means test bogey today. So much of the population is already affected by one means test or another that it is highly irrelevant. Sixty per cent. of local authorities already operate rebate schemes which involve a means test.