NORTHERN IRELAND

HC Deb 19 October 1971 vol 823 cc546-50

Mr. Orme

(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement about the interrogation of internees in Northern Ireland.

The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Reginald Maudling)

Allegations have been made about the interrogation of persons arrested in Northern Ireland on 9th August under the Special Powers Acts. These are being investigated by Sir Edmund Compton's Committee of Inquiry. When the Committee's report is available, a statement will be made to the House.

Mr. Orme

Does the Home Secretary realise that the terms of reference of Sir Edmund Compton's Committee of Inquiry are not satisfactory, and that there is a widespread demand that this inquiry be held in public and that people should be able to have legal representation, if necessary? I wish to impress this on the right hon. Gentleman, as the question of internment is leading to a deterioration of community relations in Northern Ireland, and I am sure that he wants to see them improved. Will he, therefore, alter the terms of Sir Edmund Compton's inquiry and allow these allegations to be properly investigated, which, surely is in the interests of the British Army as well as of the people of Northern Ireland?

Mr. Maudling

There is some misunderstanding about this. I wrote myself to Sir Edmund Compton on 31st August specifically asking him to look into these particular allegations. As regards the questions of a public inquiry, I am quite certain that the inquiry by Sir Edmund Compton and his colleagues, with a statement to the House and publication of his report, is the right way to go about it.

Mr. McMaster

Does my right hon. Friend have in mind that about 125 people have been killed in Northern Ireland by the I.R.A. during this campaign, that many hundreds of others have been injured and mutilated for life, and great damage has been done? Will my right hon. Friend give some consideration to the lives of the Servicemen, police and others who are still at risk in Northern Ireland, and make sure that suspects are thoroughly questioned in order that the campaign of violence can be brought to an end as quickly as possible?

Mr. Maudling

That is a different question, though exceedingly important. No one in the House denies for a moment the need to bring an end to the campaign of terror. I am asked here about certain allegations, and I have made quite clear that these allegations are being considered by Sir Edmund Compton.

Mr. Paget

Is it not a fact that information has been obtained from these internees which has resulted in our being able to save the lives of a number of our troops who would otherwise have been killed; and will the right hon. Gentleman realise that, so long as that sort of information continues, there are some of us who are not too concerned as to the methods used? One cannot fight an urban guerrilla with kid gloves, and it is unfair to ask our troops to do so.

Mr. Maudling

Intelligence is of enormous importance in defeating the gunman, but despite that I repeat once again that allegations of this character must be fully investigated.

Mr. McManus

I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) in protesting that it is a totally inadequate inquiry, but, while Sir Edmund Compton's Committee is sitting—we are told that it will report some time next month—and while all that is going on, people continue to die on the streets of Northern Ireland. chiefly as a result of internment. [HON. MEMBERS: "No"] Does the Home Secretary realise that the figures will show that more people have died since the introduction of internment than in the previous three years? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, while Sir Edmund has been inquiring into allegations, one Liam Rogers of Warren Point, who was arrested over a week ago, has still not been produced, no one knows where this man is, and, judging from allegations and statements made as late as last night by one William Shannon, who was produced at the last moment, there is fear in Northern Ireland that Mr. Rogers is suffering the same treatment as Mr. Shannon and others are alleged to have suffered?

Will the Home Secretary—[HON. MEMBERS: "Too long."]—not agree also that, while Sir Edmund Compton is sitting, the British military authorities are putting undue pressure on doctors to disclose information about William Shannon? Further, will he bear in mind that, while Sir Edmund's inquiry is proceeding, the case of Northern Ireland has been brought to the legal committee of the Court of Human Rights, and this Government are in grave danger of going into serious international disrepute? All this is going on while Sir Edmund Compton's Committee of Inquiry—

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman has now asked at least three questions. The Home Secretary must have an opportunity to answer.

Mr. Maudling

On the whereabouts of the individual named, I shall certainly make inquiries. I do not for a moment accept that undue pressure is being put on doctors by the Army or anyone else. The deaths on the streets of Belfast are caused by the terrorists.

Mr. Longden

Although it is certainly necessary that any such allegations are inquired into, and although no one could do that better than Sir Edmund Compton. can my right hon. Friend say why, considering that they are made by known enemies of the State, they should be believed by so many people and, in particular, by the mass media?

Mr. Maudling

No, Sir; but, when allegations of this kind are made, from whatever quarter, they must be impartially investigated.

Miss Devlin

Will the Home Secretary accept that attacks on the police forces, and, in particular, on members of the special branch in Northern Ireland, are at this time increasing due to the widespread belief that these men are engaged actively in the torture of people interned in the north of Ireland, and that, specifically, members of the special branch—a Mr. Taylor and a Mr. Henry Morrison—have been publicly named, along with two other gentlemen, one of them a Mr. Kyle, in the Press in the north of Ireland? At this moment, the allegations go unrefuted, and they are not to be adequately inquired into. If this House has any concern for the lives of the special branch of the police and the security forces in the north of Ireland, should it not take into account that those lives will continue to be at risk until the allegations are refuted?

Will the Home Secretary not agree, therefore, that it is in the interest of his own security forces, if in no one else's interest—[Interruption.] They have already been published in the Press, if hon. Members will read them. Will not the right hon. Gentleman realise, in the interests of the security forces, if no one else's, that the deaths will continue, and the retaliations will continue against brutality and torture—which people in the north of Ireland consider to be fact, unless it is refuted? Will the Home Secretary realise that Sir Edmund Compton cannot act quickly enough or publicly now, and that we need a public inquiry, an end to interrogation, and an end to internment if we want any peace?

Mr. Maudling

It is true that the murder of British soldiers and policemen is increasing in Northern Ireland, and I would hope that every hon. Member, including the hon. Lady, would unreservedly condemn that.

Mr. Rose

Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that there is an interrogation centre at the Palace Barracks, Holywood? Is he aware that the methods of the R.U.C. are unfairly bringing British troops into disrepute? Is not it inevitable that the sort of allegations we have heard will be made when the right hon. Gentleman embarks on a policy of internment, because of its very nature? Has not this ill-conceived and clumsily executed policy at a stroke caused more deaths in Northern Ireland than there were in the whole period before internment?

Mr. Maudling

We must leave the question of the allegations until we receive the report of Sir Edmund Compton. We debated the policy of internment a very short while ago, and I repeat what I said then, that, hideous as it is, it is a weapon that has been used in the past and is justified now in protecting society against terror.

Mr. Delargy

I have a simple question. There is some ambiguity here, certainly in my mind. The original terms of reference of the Compton Committee were to inquire into the circumstances of the arrest of the internees, and nothing else. Will the right hon. Gentleman give the House his solemn guarantee that the terms of reference will now be so extended that the Compton Committee will inquire into the allegations of brutality?

Mr. Maudling

Yes, Sir. I have already said that I had a letter sent to Sir Edmund Compton on 31st August asking him to do precisely that.

Mr. Callaghan

Is not the essential need now to secure what are the facts of the situation? Has not the Home Secretary now the responsibility, if he has not already done so, to ask the Sunday Times, which printed the allegations, to send them to Sir Edmund Compton? Whether the inquiry is conducted in private or in public, is it not the case—and I would hope that there is general acceptance in the House of this—that whatever methods are being practised on our own troops, and however much murder is being committed, we could not agree to depart from accepted rules of questioning those in detention, that we could not agree to depart from civilised standards in the matter? Otherwise, we become no better than those who are committing the murder.

Mr. Maudling

Sir Edmund Compton has made is clear already that he will be happy to consider the information available to the Sunday Times. I gather that arrangements are being made this very day to make sure that he gets it from the Sunday Times.