NORTHERN IRELAND (Hansard, 18 October 1971)

§ Miss Devlin
I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely, the allegations appearing in yesterday's Sunday Times of brutality by British Army Intelligence in the interrogation of persons in Northern Ireland which confirm those repeatedly made by the Irish national Press and by political organisations in Ireland since 12th August, 1971. I consider the matter to be of specific public importance if for no other reason than that no information can be obtained from British Army Intelligence sources, Army or military sources, or from the civil authorities in the north of Ireland as to the whereabouts of Mr. William Shannon, who was taken from his family home in Belfast over seven days ago. Because of the allegations, repeated in yesterday's Sunday Times, which, as I say, have been repeatedly made since 12th August, many people in the north of Ireland fear for the safety of this gentleman, believing, if there is any foundation in the allegations, or if they are not inquired into with the utmost urgency, that they have every reason to think that at this precise moment he is undergoing the kind of tortures described in yesterday's Sunday Times.
I also believe the matter to be of urgent public importance because most of the unrest in the north of Ireland, and the escalation of violence in every part of the community, extends back, in a large part, to the issue of internment and the interning of 219 people on 9th August in Belfast. If, in addition to the insult and assault on the community resulting from interning over 300 members of that community, people are to be faced with the prospect of allegations being made 381 through the organs of public opinion, through the Irish national Press and now through one of the most respected—respected even by right hon. and hon. Members opposite—and respectable newspapers of this country, such allegations must be immediately investigated.
If once again this House turns a blind eye to the cry from the people of Northern Ireland for some means of inquiring into what they believe to be fact and what I, without apology, also believe to be fact, and if it cannot find a solution to the problems of Northern Ireland, then on its head so be it. There is no longer room for credence in statements made outside this House by Privy Councillors about discussions behind closed doors. It is time that the public, not only of Northern Ireland but of Britain, were allowed to hear what exactly is happening and what is being carried out by British forces in the north of Ireland.
It is not all that long ago since the Government were brought—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. The hon. Lady is not allowed, in proposing the Motion, to make the speech which she would make if the Motion were successful.

§ Miss Devlin
If the Motion were successful, Mr. Speaker, what I should say would be a good deal stronger than what I am saying.
I believe that the matter should be discussed in the House now in such a manner that not only the Northern Ireland public but the British public understand the situation. It is not so long since the Government were brought before the European Commission of Human Rights for their activities in Cyprus—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. The hon. Lady cannot give even a toned-down version of the speech which she would make if the Motion were successful. She should bring her submission to the Chair.

§ Miss Devlin
In the belief that the allegations appearing in the Sunday Times warrant an immediate inquiry and discussion, I ask that this House do now adjourn to discuss them.

§ Mr. Speaker
The hon. Lady the Member for Mid-Ulster (Miss Devlin) seeks leave to move the Adjournment of the House to discuss what she considers to 382 be a specific and important matter, namely, the allegations appearing in yesterday's Sunday Times of brutality by British Army Intelligence in the interrogation of persons in Northern Ireland which confirm those repeatedly made by the Irish national press and by political organisations in Ireland since 12th August, 1971. The hon. Lady was kind enough to give me warning a few moments ago that she intended to move the Adjournment. Without doubt, the allegations are important, but I have to decide the matter under the Standing Order, and I have decided that I cannot give her application precedence.

§ Mr. McManus
Further to the point of order. May I urge that the matter is of the utmost specific importance because at this moment, if the allegations are true, men are suffering torture in Belfast. If the allegations are true, the Secretary of State for Defence—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order.

Hon. Members
Sit down.

§ Mr. Speaker
It would be very much easier for the Chair if it were allowed to deal with these matters itself. The hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. McManus) cannot, on a point of order, dispute my Ruling. It is not possible to raise matters of substance on a point of order. Points of order must relate to the procedure of the House. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to raise a matter of procedure or action under the Standing Order, will he please come to it?

§ Miss Devlin
On an entirely new point of order, Mr. Speaker. Given the failure of this House to come to terms and to discuss matters of urgent public importance, is it possible to seek your guidance as to how they may be discussed? Is it in order to suggest to right hon. and hon. Members opposite that if the matter is not dealt with immediately inside this House it will be dealt with immediately outside it?

§ Mr. Speaker
The point which the hon. Lady makes is not a point of order for me. The opportunity for raising matters in the House are well known. 383 All that I have to do today is to give a ruling under Standing Order No. 9, and I have so ruled.

§ Mr. McManus
On a point of order. I urge the House to adjourn under Standing Order No. 9 for the specific purpose of discussing a matter of urgent public importance because at this moment several of my constituents who are known to me may be undergoing the torture that is alleged, and substantially alleged, in the Sunday Times and other newspapers. I believe that in a civilized, or supposedly civilized society, a Member of this House should at least be accorded the opportunity of hearing what the Government have to say when his constituents may be suffering torture—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I have to rule whether the hon. Gentleman's application is so similar to the previous application that it should not be entertained. I am afraid that it appears to be to be precisely on the same point. Therefore, I must rule the hon. Gentleman out of order.

§ Mr. Heffer
I accept your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, but I hope that everyone in the House is very concerned at the allegations which have been made in a national newspaper. In those circumstances, is it possible to ask the Leader of the House whether the Minister responsible for the Army will make a statement to the House tomorrow or at the earliest possible moment so that the matter may be properly investigated by the House?

§ Mr. Speaker
The point has been made. I am not sure whether it was in order for it to be made in that way, but it has been the practice of the Chair to allow such points to be made. No 384 doubt notice will be taken of what the hon. Gentleman has said.

§ Mr. McMaster
Further to the point of order. I should like to make it clear that no one among the Ulster Unionists or on this side of the House is afraid of a full investigation being made into the matters which have been raised.

§ Mr. Speaker
That is not a point of order.

§ Miss Devlin
I am sorry to take up the time of the House, but this happens to be an important matter to many of us. Therefore, I rise under Standing Order No. 9 to move "That this House do now adjourn" in order to discuss a matter of specific and urgent public importance, namely, the whereabouts of one Mr. William Shannon, removed from his home under the Northern Ireland Special Powers Act over seven days ago, and of whom no trace can be found in the North of Ireland. This is a matter of urgent and specific importance because specifically it deals with the liberty of one individual, an individual against whom no charge has been brought—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. The hon. Lady, in putting forward her case in her last submission, I think, specifically mentioned this particular instance. I cannot allow her to proceed. If she will have a word with me about ways of raising matters in accordance with the procedures of this House, I will be happy, with those who assist me, to advise her. There are ways in which these matters—these allegations, whether they be true or false, which are without doubt important—can be ventilated. But I must rule out of order the hon. Lady's application under Standing Order No. 9.