Northern Ireland

HC Deb 25 November 1971 vol 826 cc1507-18

1. Mr. Cronin

asked the Minister of State for Defence what steps he is taking to improve the accommodation and amenities of British troops in Ulster.

28. Mr. Goodhart

asked the Minister of State for Defence what action he is taking to improve the accommodation and amenities of British troops serving in Northern Ireland.

The Under-Secretary of State for Defence for the Army (Mr. Geoffrey Johnson Smith)

I would draw the hon. Members' attention to the reply to the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) on 25th October last. Further accommodation improvements envisaged include equipment for canteens; cleaning, partitioning and repair of temporary accommodation; and the provision in temporary accommodation of floor-polishing machines, vacuum cleaners, industrial waste disposal units and washing machines. We have also introduced a number of further improvements in amenities. These include the provision of more coin-operated telephone boxes and television sets; free newspapers; concessional air fares and other leave travel concessions; a welfare agency staffed by members of the Women's Royal Voluntary Service; and funds for the hire of civilian coaches for welfare and recreational purposes.—[Vol. 823, c. 263.]

Mr. Cronin

While appreciating the hon. Gentleman's good intentions, may I ask him whether it is not the case that a large proportion of the troops in Northern Ireland spend their off-duty time in cold, wet, insanitary, uncomfortable, overcrowded conditions? Is this not putting a strain on the continued good humour and tolerance of the British troops? Will the hon. Gentleman accelerate in every possible way the steps to improve their amenities?

Mr. Johnson Smith

I would not for a moment dispute that there are many soldiers in Northern Ireland living in accommodation which leaves much to be desired. However, I emphasise most strongly that everything possible is being done about this with considerable speed, and I draw the hon. Gentleman's attention to the announcement made not long ago in another place about an additional £½ million which will be used to help make more comfortable the many undesirable places where soldiers have to stay in order to carry out their duties.

Mr. Goodhart

While thanking my hon. Friend for the strenuous efforts that he is making to improve the situation, may I ask him to bear in mind that it will take far more than £½ million to put right all the accommodation deficiencies? As we are trying to boost the economy of Ulster, would it not be a good idea if some pump-priming went into providing better accommodation for the soldiers? Is my hon. Friend aware that it is intolerable that avoidable discomfort should be added to unavoidable danger for our troops?

Mr. Johnson Smith

The £½ million to which I referred is for those things which meet the more personal needs of soldiers in accommodation which is undesirable but which it is necessary for them to inhabit, if I may put it that way, to discharge their duties—that is, accommodation which is placed tactically in volatile areas. In addition to what I have said, programmes are under way for a more permanent type of accommodation. I am satisfied that we have had excellent co-operation from the Department of the Environment and that the work could not have been done more quickly. Hon. Members should bear in mind that we have had to meet the needs of increased numbers of soldiers.

Mr. Simon Mahon

Is the Minister aware that one of the best ways to improve the welfare of our soldiers in Northern Ireland is to make much better the public personal relationships that exist between them and the mass of the Roman Catholic people in the North of Ireland? Will he issue instructions to this effect to the G.O.C. in Northern Ireland? It is imperative that he do so because the situation there is deteriorating.

Mr. Johnson Smith

I assure the hon. Gentleman that the G.O.C. attaches—and certainly I do—the greatest importance to maintaining and sustaining the best possible relationship with the Catholic members of the community. I am bound to say that in the course of the visits that I have made to Northern Ireland, I have always been struck by the willingness of the Army to maintain good relationships with Catholics.

4. Mr. Biggs-Davison

asked the Minister of State for Defence whether he will make a statement on the progress of operations in Northern Ireland.

22. Mr. Cronin

asked the Minister of State for Defence what progress is being made by the General Officer Commanding in Northern Ireland towards achieving his operational objectives.

The Minister of State for Defence (Lord Balniel)

By their vigorous operations to combat terrorist activities, the security forces continue to make inroads into the strength of the I.R.A.

Mr. Biggs-Davison

In view of the recent and commendable operations and captures by Her Majesty's Forces, may we be assured that for the sake of innocent life there will be no let-up in lawful, authorised and rigorous interrogations?

Lord Balniel

Interrogation and questioning of wanted men will, of course, continue, but in so doing we will bear in mind that the Compton Committee has reported and that the matter is under consideration by the Committee of Privy Councillors.

Mr. Cronin

While one wishes to express admiration for the excellent work done by the troops in Northern Ireland, may I ask whether it is not the case that there has been no real improvement in the military situation in recent months and that there is no likelihood of improvement while our troops are confronted with a hostile population? Is it not essential that the Government should take much more swift action to obtain a political solution?

Lord Balniel

I disagree with the hon. Gentleman, because the military efficiency of the operations is steadily increasing, the number of wanted men being arrested is steadily increasing and the seizure of arms is increasing. But it would be unwise to speculate about when one can bring this very serious situation to an end.

Mr. Stratton Mills

Is my hon. Friend aware that I endorse what he says about the increasing effectiveness of the work of the security forces? Is he further aware that the fantastic response by the people of Northern Ireland, of all communities, to the Lord Mayor of Belfast's Christmas Fund—at the rate of £1,000 a day—for comforts for the troops shows how highly they are considered by the people of Northern Ireland?

Lord Balniel

I agree with my hon. Friend. The measure of the improvement can be gauged from the fact that during the last four weeks the number of arrests of wanted men has been 73, 41, 110 and 109, respectively.

Mr. John Morris

Can the hon. Gentleman tell us that the G.O.C. Northern Ireland is nearer to achieving his objectives than he was three months ago?

Lord Balniel

I think that the right hon. Gentleman would be unwise to press me to speculate as to when this terrorist campaign can be brought to an end. All I can say is that the grip on the terrorist organisation is steadily and inexorably being tightened. This is a purpose which, I believe, the whole House supports.

6. Mr. David Steel

asked the Minister of State for Defence whether he will enable army units operating in Northern Ireland to receive the standard overseas allowance, especially in cases where these units have been withdrawn from overseas.

Mr. G. Johnson Smith

I assume the hon. Member is referring to local overseas allowance. This is not a standard allowance but is assessed separately for each overseas theatre to compensate for the extra cost of living compared with that in the United Kingdom. It would not therefore be appropriate to pay the allowance to troops serving in any part of the United Kingdom, although, of course, the family left in B.A.O.R. continue to receive their share of the overseas allowances.

Mr. Steel

Is it not unfair that troops who have been existing in reasonably pleasant conditions, say, in Germany and who find themselves transferred of necessity to unpleasant conditions in Northern Ireland should at the same time suffer loss of income? This surely cannot be right. Will the Minister look at it again?

Mr. Johnson Smith

I understand the hon. Member's concern. Financially speaking, in real terms a soldier in Northern Ireland is not worse off. Income in B.A.O.R. is related to costs in B.A.O.R. Similarly, the income of a soldier in Northern Ireland is related to costs there. If the hon. Member has a particular case in mind and will let me know the details, I will write to him.

Mr. Tapsell

While there may well be a case for paying a special hardship allowance to Servicemen in Northern Ireland at present, will my hon. Friend stress that the troops there are not overseas but at home, as he has said, and that even to suggest the payment of an overseas allowance is entirely to misrepresent the situation?

Mr. Johnson Smith

I accept my hon. Friend's last point. The general point which the House might consider is that the duties in which Servicemen are called upon to engage in Northern Ireland are accepted as part of the normal terms and conditions of service. It has not been the custom in the past, nor is it now, to pay extra money for such duties.

14. Mr. McMaster

asked the Minister of State for Defence how many members of the security forces have been murdered and how many injured, as a result of the Irish Republican Army terrorist campaign in Northern Ireland since 12th August, 1969.

Mr. G. Johnson Smith

Up to this morning 38 Regular Army, two Ulster Defence Regiment and 14 Royal Ulster Constabulary personnel had been killed; and 330 members of the Armed Forces had been admitted to hospital as a result of security operations. I regret that information on numbers of R.U.C. injured is not available.

Mr. McMaster

In view of the increasing tempo, in recent weeks and months, of these cowardly attacks on the Army and police, both on and off duty, some while bravely attempting to defuse bombs and booby traps, will my hon. Friend assure me that the Army will take all steps necessary to discover and arrest these terrorists, murderers and bombers in order to protect innocent civilians as well as the Army and the police?

Mr. Johnson Smith

I am glad to be able to give my hon. Friend that assurance. From 9th August until 24th November this year, 1,162 people were arrested and the number of arrests of men on the wanted list for the period 20th October to 24th November was 465.

Mr. Simon Mahon

Is the Minister aware that more of our soldiers have been killed in Northern Ireland than during the whole of the Aden campaign? Does not this show how imperative it is to bring about a political solution immediately rather than a military one?

Mr. Johnson Smith

It is a source of great sorrow to all Members of the House of Commons that anyone should lose his life or be wounded in the cause of these activities, but I am sure the hon. Member would agree that there can be no hope of any political solution until we have managed to get on top of the terrorists.

Mr. Walden

Is the Minister aware, however, that it is exactly that proposition that some of us are coming increasingly to doubt? We do not wish to say anything about what the Army does—it has been magnificent—but would not the Minister agree that the idea of first beating the gunmen and then taking a political initiative is exactly the sort of policy which has led to disasters elsewhere by other nations in other lands? Would it not be more sensible to try to beat the gunmen while taking a political initiative?

Mr. Johnson Smith

With respect the hon. Member, who follows this matter closely, must read what I have said. I did not say that we should beat the gunmen first and then have a political solution. I have never suggested that, neither have my hon. Friends. Nor has any member of the Government suggested it. What I am suggesting is that one cannot have a political solution and expect it to work when there are, in some parts of Northern Ireland, conditions where terrorism holds sway. The constitution cannot work in those circumstances. I beg the hon. Member to bear in mind that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary is at all times seeking to obtain conditions from his point of view which will make it possible for political solutions to take place.

19. Mr. Goodhart

asked the Minister of State for Defence whether he will make a statement about recruitment for the Ulster Defence Regiment, and about the rôle of the regiment.

Mr. G. Johnson Smith

I am pleased to be able to tell the House that the strength of the Ulster Defence Regiment on 24th November was just over 5,500, an increase of 1,300 since mid-September. I would add that applications to join the regiment are still coming in at an encouraging rate of over 250 a week as compared with less than 50 a week earlier in the year. The rôle of the regiment remains unchanged.

Mr. Goodhart

While paying tribute to the excellent work of the Ulster Defence Regiment, may I ask my hon. Friend to bear in mind that the good recruiting figures might be even better if the regiment were given a more positive and more mobile rôle?

Mr. Johnson Smith

I would not accept that the regiment has been given a rôle which is not important and worthwhile. It carries out numerous and widely distributed static guard duties. It also has patrolling duties and as its strength grows it will be possible to allocate duties nearer members' homes to an increasing degree.

Mr. Hattersley

Does the Minister recall that the previous Government gave assurances that the weapons of the regiment would be centralised and not held in individual members' homes? Does that assurance still hold good or are weapons now being taken home by individual members?

Mr. Johnson Smith

I have always understood that in certain very limited circumstances, both under the previous Administration and under the present one, some members of the regiment may have their weapons at home. There has, however, been no change in policy so far as I know.

Mr. Stratton Mills

While recognising my hon. Friend's contribution to the expansion of this force, may I ask what measures are being taken to speed up the vetting procedures for men applying to join the regiment?

Mr. Johnson Smith

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his opening remarks. We must always ensure that our vetting procedures are not speeded up at the cost of efficiency and fairness. A few weeks ago the procedure took about six weeks. As we are specially anxious to capture the enthusiasm of Ulstermen we have shortened the period to four weeks, and obviously we will try to bring it down still further.

Mr. Walden

Since, admittedly against precedent, the last Government, for very good and sufficient reasons, gave the religious breakdown of the regiment, it would interest us greatly to know how many Roman Catholics are now serving, since it is obviously essential that the force remains balanced.

Mr. Johnson Smith

I have always been willing to give the balance between Catholics and Protestants. It is important that we should know what the balance is and, at the same time, pay tribute to those Catholics who, often against intimidation, joined the regiment or have remained in it. At the start of the year the Roman Catholic element in the regiment was 4 per cent. of officers and 15 per cent. of soldiers. In October the figures were 8 per cent. for officers and nearly 11 per cent. for soldiers. There has been a levelling off since then and a little over 8 per cent. of both officers and soldiers are Roman Catholics. I should add that all members of the Northern Ireland community are encouraged to join this non-sectarian regiment.

20. Mr. George Cunningham

asked the Minister of State for Defence what plans he has to introduce legislation to indemnify members of the Armed Forces who have committed the criminal assaults described in the Compton Report.

Lord Balniel

I do not accept that the Compton Report supports the imputations of criminal assault made by the hon. Member. If indemnifying legislation of this nature were required it would be a matter for the Northern Ireland Government.

Mr. Cunningham

In view of the necessarily emotive nature of this subject, will the Minister permit me to say that this Question is not intended to reflect on the courageous activity of British troops in preventing the two communities in Northern Ireland from destroying each other? While he and his colleagues have not been prepared to take the views of some of us during the last week that the activities described in the report are not only amoral but illegal, will he take account of the views expressed in The Times today showing in detail that those who have committed these acts lay themselves open to criminal prosecution? Will he agree that those who have done so—soldiers, officers and Ministers—lay themselves open, Ministers in particular, to a charge of conspiracy to commit criminal assault? In those circumstances—[HON. MEMBERS: "Too long."] In those circumstances will the Minister also bear in mind that his refusal to allow me to see one of the implements used on that occasion could be regarded as a means of preventing a Member of Parliament from taking the action necessary to bring criminal proceedings against the Minister? Will he—

Mr. Speaker

Order. That is quite enough. I call upon the Minister to reply.

Lord Balniel

I am glad that the hon. Gentleman shares the Government's view, although he finds a very odd way of expressing it, that the reputation of our soldiers for discipline and restraint remains untarnished following a scrutiny of their conduct. The Compton Inquiry found that in some cases detainees suffered ill treatment and a measure of unintended hardship. Whether this amounted to criminal acts on the part of the soldiers is a matter that can only properly be decided by the Northern Ireland courts although in my view it most certainly does not.

Mr. Speaker

No. 21, Mrs. Fenner.

Mr. John Morris

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I have called the next Question. [Interruption.] Hon. Members cannot have it both ways. If we have very long supplementary questions, other hon. Members are squeezed out.

Mr. Cunningham

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek leave to raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

Mr. Wellbeloved

On a point of order. I am sorry to take up part of Question Time, but there is an important principle here. This is a matter of great interest not only to the people of Ulster but to this Parliament. [HON. MEMBERS: "After Questions."] This is an important issue and the Opposition Front Bench spokesman has not had an opportunity of commenting upon it.

Mr. Speaker

I am trying to carry out the injunctions of the Select Committee on Procedure with regard to Question Time. Mrs. Fenner, Question No. 21.

Mr. John Morris

I hesitate to detain the House for a moment longer than is necessary, Mr. Speaker, but I sought to catch your eye immediately my hon. Friend sat down. In those circumstances I ask leave to put my question.

Mr. Speaker

I cannot grant that now because the hon. Member for Islington, South-West (Mr. George Cunningham) has said that he intends to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

Mr. Cunningham

rose—

Mr. Speaker

If the hon. Member wishes to raise a point of order, will he do it at the end of Question Time?

24. Mr. McMaster

asked the Minister of State for Defence what arrangements are now being made by the Army for the protection of police stations from attack by armed Irish Republican Army groups in Northern Ireland.

Lord Balniel

The Army—including the Ulster Defence Regiment—will guard as many stations as the operational situation and the Regular and U.D.R. manpower available in Northern Ireland permit. There has been an increase recently in the number of stations at which full-time or part-time guards are provided: this number was 76 in all at 19th November, compared with 61 at 20th October. The remaining stations are covered by Army patrols.

Mr. McMaster

While thanking my noble Friend for that reply, may I ask him, in view of the deliberate and well-planned attacks carried out on the police both on and off duty and on their homes, to see that priority is given to protecting the stations and individual policemen in the interests of the whole community?

Lord Balniel

I appreciate the importance of the point but my hon. Friend will understand that to tie down troops on static guard duties more than is absolutely necessary diverts them from other tasks when they could more effectively and actively take the initiative in combating terrorism.

Mr. Alexander W. Lyon

Does the Minister recognise that we cannot protect anyone, even policemen, by methods of illegality? What kind of legal power is there for officers of the R.U.C. or the British Armed Forces to engage in the methods of interrogation disclosed in the Compton Report whereby they physically assaulted men, put them up against the wall and put sacks over their heads?

Lord Balniel

I hardly see that that arises from this Question, but the interpretation of the law is a matter for the Northern Ireland courts.

Mr. John Morris

In view of the gravity of the matters canvassed in the Question and the supplementary question, and in the light of the answer given earlier, will the Minister give an assurance that because of the need adequately to protect our courageous forces and so that there shall be no improper use of force to extract information, there will be a statement by the Attorney-General before the Ulster debate? There is grave concern on this matter.

Lord Balniel

We have already debated this subject in the House and there is to be a further debate today an Northern Ireland. The procedures followed were within the rules of interrogation laid down by the previous Administration. [HON. MEMBERS:" No."] They did not involve assaults on those under interrogation and, as the House knows, a Committee of Privy Councillors under a most eminent judge has been appointed to look at this difficult and important matter.