§ Mr. Alexander W. LyonOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Before we begin the business of the day, may I raise with you a point of order about the matter of the Dean of Johannesburg? As you know, Sir, I attempted to table—
§ Mr. SpeakerNo.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. It is a well-established rule that it is within the discretion of the Chair whether a Private Notice Question is allowed. No reference to the subject matter of a Private Notice Question is permissible on a point of order. I must rule absolutely firmly about that.
§ Mr. SpeakerThe hon. Gentleman is absolutely out of order in referring to the fact that he sought to table a Private Notice Question. That is the rule of the House.
§ Mr. LyonMr. Speaker, I wish to ask how one is to raise the issue of the conviction and imprisonment of a British subject in a foreign country, a matter which has raised a shoal of protest throughout the world —[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—but which has not raised one murmur from the Government who are supposed to be protecting him.
§ Mr. SpeakerIf the hon. Gentleman feels he is in a difficulty on a matter of 175 [MR. SPEAKER.]
this sort, he should come and consult. I always try to help as best I can, and those who advise me try to help. There are ways in which these things can be done. One thing which is absolutely definite—until Standing Orders are altered I will not tolerate any deviation from this—is that when a Private Notice Question has not been allowed there can be no reference to it on the Floor of the House.
On the question of how this issue can be raised, the House is engaged on a debate in which, perhaps, there will be almost endless opportunities. In a moment or two I shall give an indication of what the topics are. Today is a general day. I should have thought that the hon. Gentleman could draw his own conclusions from that fact.
§ Mr. LyonFurther to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. This is an issue of a man who has been imprisoned—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I cannot tolerate the merits of a question being discussed on a point of order. I have given the hon. Gentleman a pretty broad hint that today is a day for a general debate. If he catches the eye of the Chair, he can ventilate this point.
§ Mr. LyonI will not sit down. Mr. Speaker, the issue is too grave for it to be dealt with by a casual reference in an hon. Member's speech in the debate on the Loyal Address. It demands a question and answer session. The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs will not be answering Questions until 22nd November, three weeks after this man was convicted and sentenced.
176 All I am asking is: how can we raise this question as a matter of urgency? If you, Mr. Speaker, would accept an application for a debate under Standing Order No. 9 at this stage, although I have not been able to give you notice of such an application, I would do it in that way.
§ Mr. SpeakerIf the hon. Gentleman had discussed this matter with me I could have given him certain advice. We are well past the time for Standing Order No. 9 applications today. We have already had the presentation of Bills and we have had the business of the House.
The Chair is put in a difficulty. It is my duty to try to govern the proceedings of the House according to the Standing Orders. I accept that there are deeply felt feelings on this matter, but under the Standing Orders the merits of a question cannot be raised in a discussion on points of order. There are ways of dealing with this matter and I am always ready to advise and help. What I cannot accept—I do not think I am allowed to accept it under the Standing Orders—is the discussion of the merits of a problem on a point of order. That is what is frequently called a bogus or fraudulent point of order, and I cannot allow it.
§ Mr. FreesonWould it be in order, Mr. Speaker, for the Foreign Secretary to cone to the House this afternoon during the course of the debate on the Address and make a statement on this matter?
§ Mr. SpeakerAgain, that has nothing to do with the Chair. It is a point which I think my predecessors and I have been apt to allow to be made, but never as a point of order. However, the point can be noted. I think, though, that it is an abuse of the Standing Orders. We must get on.