HC Deb 27 May 1971 vol 818 cc559-61
6. Mr. Gorst

asked the Secretary of State for Employment whether he will now make a further statement about relieving smaller firms of the obligation to pay levies to industrial training boards, in the light of the review he is making.

Mr. Bryan

My right hon. Friend expects to make a further recommendation on this question when the results of his review of industrial training are published. Meanwhile, following his interim guidance, boards are increasingly exempting small firms from the levy.

Mr. Gorst

While thanking my hon. Friend for that reply, may I press him to say a little more about what progress there has been since the interim guidance of about three months ago and, in particular, whether he will name some of the industries in which progress has already been made?

Mr. Bryan

Since my right hon. Friend's guidance was issued, eight boards have increased their exemption limits. The latest example is the Construction Industry Training Board which, in its current levy proposals, is excluding firms with payrolls below £6,000. This will remove 23,000 firms from the levy.

Mr. Rose

While we are awaiting the results of the review may I ask whether the Minister is not under an obligation to come to this House and to make an interim statement? Is he not under an obligation to tell the House that he overruled the unanimous view of the Air Travel Board with regard to travel agents, particularly the smaller agents? Is it satisfactory that he should tell the House by written reply about the winding-up of an industrial training board? Is this not just one more departure from one of the Prime Minister's promises at Ayr, immediately before the election, when he promised us a vast expansion of industrial training?

Mr. Bryan

In the short debate that we had on industrial training boards the other day the Opposition was outnumbered by 40 to one, or certainly 20 to one. The hon. Member for Manchester, Blackley (Mr. Rose) was the only Member present on those benches—the only person interested. On that day I acknowledged that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State had overruled the board in that respect.

Mr. Mather

Would my hon. Friend also bear in mind the claims of small transport firms, to many of whom this is a heavy burden bringing very little benefit?

Mr. Bryan

As I said in the debate—it was heard by one hon. Member opposite—the small firms will be one of the major problems which we shall have to study in our deep review.

Mr. C. Pannell

Does the hon. Gentleman not appreciate that small firms in industry have as much responsibility as the larger firms for providing a quota of apprentices? Is he aware that one of the difficulties which I found in the building industry was that certain well-known firms have first-class apprenticeship schemes and the whole of the industry is expected to live off those. I do not see that exemption from the training levy is necessarily a progressive step.

Mr. Bryan

With respect, we are not talking about apprentices; we are talking about the difficulties of small firms.

Mr. Russell Kerr

Would the hon. Gentleman not agree that the presence of 40 Conservative Members and of one of my hon. Friends is just about right and resulted in a very evenly-balanced debate?