HC Deb 25 May 1971 vol 818 cc207-9
6. Mr. Pavitt

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what action he is taking in the light of the report of the Prices and Incomes Board on the lower-paid workers employed in the National Health Service.

Sir K. Joseph

The Board's report No. 166 is being urgently considered in consultation with representatives of hospital management.

Mr. Pavitt

Is it not a terrible thing that the answer given the Secretary of State deals only with management although workers also are affected by this matter? Will the right hon. Gentleman have urgent discussions with the National Union of Public Employees and the Confederation of Health Service Employees with a view to instituting some efficient arrangements in view of the wide discrepancy between the lowest of the lowest paid and the highest of the highest paid?

Sir K. Joseph

I am very concerned to raise productivity and earnings in the hospital service, and I take the hon. Gentleman's point. First of all, I must examine with the boards the possibility of expanding the skilled staffs necessary to carry out either the incentive schemes which are now in operation or those recommended by the Board.

Sir D. Walker-Smith

Would my right hon. Friend agree that this problem has proved intractable over the years and that in the past it has been no easier of solution by reason of the relatively low ranking of Ministers of Health in the governmental hierarchy? Would he, therefore, appreciate that he now has a great opportunity to make some progress in the solution of the problem of the remuneration of those who are doing this socially useful work and whose contribution cannot be precisely measured by market considerations or indices of productivity?

Sir K. Joseph

I fear that Ministerial energy and willpower are not enough, though I am sure that my right hon. and learned Friend has both at his disposal to an incomparable degree. There are difficulties of mobilising and managing men and women to increase their output, as has been found by Governments in the past.

Mr. Heffer

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a great number of lower-paid workers in the National Health Service are highly skilled and that this almost intractable problem requires immediate action by the Government? Is he also aware that the pilot scheme for bonus payments has operated in only one area of the country, and does he not agree that the scheme should be extended throughout the whole country to get to grips with the problem? Is it not essential that the commendable spirit of the workers, who have remained loyal to this service when they could have found work elsewhere, should not be exploited?

Sir K. Joseph

I cannot take up the hon. Gentleman's reference to skills without knowing what he has in mind. The Board points out that the trade unions have not universally interested themselves enormously in productivity and the relations between productivity and earnings among some of the workers concerned.