HC Deb 13 May 1971 vol 817 cc623-32
Mr. Harold Wilson

May I ask the Leader of the House to state the business for next week?

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. William Whitelaw)

Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows: MONDAY, 17TH MAY—Supply (19th allotted day): There will be a debate on Consumer Protection, which will arise on an Opposition Motion.

Motion relating to The Intermediate Areas Order.

At Seven o'clock, the Chairman of Ways and Means has named Opposed Private Business for consideration.

TUESDAY, 18TH MAY—Committee stage of the Finance Bill.

WEDNESDAY, 19TH MAY—A debate will take place on the White Paper on Local Government in England. Command No. 4584.

Remaining stages of the Sheriff Courts (Scotland) Bill and of the Shipbuilding Industry Bill.

THURSDAY, 20TH MAY—Committee stage of the Finance Bill.

FRIDAY, 21ST MAY—Private Members' Motions.

MONDAY, 24TH MAY—Supply (20th allotted day): There will be a debate on an Opposition Motion relating to steel.

Sir, the House will wish to know that it is intended to propose that we should rise for the Whitsun Adjournment on Friday, 28th May, until Tuesday, 8th June.

Mr. Harold Wilson

With regard to Monday's debate, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, for the convenience of the House, we shall table the Motion today which will be debated on Monday? It will call attention to the decision of the House unanimously to reconstitute the consumer protection machinery and to insist that the Government now act in accordance with the Motion moved last Monday by my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, North (Mr. Wallace), since we should not want anyone to think that right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite only supported it before the municipal elections and have changed their minds since.

With regard to the debate the following Monday on the steel industry, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry announced several weeks ago that he would be making a statement on reorganisation, and that the time that the right hon. Gentleman promised that by has now passed? Will the Leader of the House urge his right hon. Friend to make a statement on reorganisation in advance of the debate on Monday week so that we know the Government's policy on what we are debating, rather than have it announced afterwards?

Mr. Whitelaw

I note that the right hon. Gentleman and his right hon. and hon. Friends will be tabling a Motion on consumer protection which will be debated on Monday, when all the matters that he has referred to can be discussed.

As for the Supply Day on steel, I will call the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry to what the right hon. Gentleman has said, but I cannot give any commitment in that sense.

Sir H. Legge-Bourke

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that a number of hon. Members on both sides of the House have, over past months, been pressing him for a debate on the Report on defence research from the Select Committee on Science and Technology? Since completing that exercise, we have the new Government White Paper on Defence Procurement. May we have an indication of the Government's plan for debating both documents?

Mr. Whitelaw

I have been pressed on a number of occasions in the past to see whether it was possible to have a debate. I note the added importance of what my hon. Friend has said.

Mr. Milne

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a statement by our negotiator in Europe next Monday is not sufficient, in the light of the reports which have been emerging from the negotiations? Will the right hon. Gentleman take note of the fact that, despite the euphoria in the Press and the discussion by the Press on the Common Market negotiations, this House is entitled to take part in the great debate on whether we should go into Europe? Will the right hon. Gentleman look closely at the fact that, if we cannot have a debate next week, certainly we should have one in the immediate future, since it appears as though the interests of the Commonwealth, of E.F.T.A. and of the British people are being sold down the river at the moment?

Mr. Whitelaw

Without agreeing with some of the hon. Gentleman's deductions, which are not for me in questions on the business statement, the Government have promised that, on every occasion that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster returns from negotiations in Europe, he will report to the House at the earliest opportunity. My right hon. Friend is attending another meeting for the rest of the week. Therefore, he will report to the House at the earliest opportunity, on Monday. I think that it is right to await my right hon. Friend's statement in the first instance.

Sir D. Renton

Am I to understand that the debate on local government reorganisation will be on a Motion merely to take note of the White Paper and not to approve it at that stage?

Mr. Whitelaw

I think that the House will wish at this stage to have a preliminary debate on this subject. That is the purpose of the debate next week. I am prepared to consider through the usual channels how best the debate should be mounted, but I think, on balance, that to take note of it is probably the right course.

Sir G. de Freitas

With regard to the steel debate, will the Leader of the House impress upon his right hon. friend the Secretary of State that, in fairness to right hon. and hon. Members who represent steel constituencies, a statement must be made before the debate?

Mr. Whitelaw

As I told the Leader of the Opposition, I have noted the wish expressed in this regard. Obviously I cannot commit my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, but I shall pass these views to him and see that he is made fully aware of them.

Mr. Gorst

Has my right hon. Friend seen Early Day Motion No. 553 on the subject of televising the proceedings of the House? Has he also noted that more than 110 hon. Members from all sides of the House have given it their support? Can my right hon. Friend say whether it is possible to find time for a debate before the Whitsun Recess?

[That this House favours the experimental televising of its proceedings on closed circuit for a period of six months.]

Mr. Whitelaw

As my hon. Friend will know, this matter was debated in the last Parliament and, by what was described as "the narrowest possible majority", was rejected. I have always believed that a new Parliament should have an opportunity to debate this subject at the appropriate time and to come to a decision on it again. I have also felt, and I believe that it is a view which is widely shared, that a new Parliament with a large number of hon. Members new to the House should have considerable time to consider all the aspects before having such a debate. It is impossible to decide now when the right moment for such a debate would be. I think that it is still too early. Certainly it would be too early before the Whitsun Recess.

Mr. John Mendelson

In view of the extraordinary constitutional importance of the Common Market negotiations, will the Leader of the House accept that the Government should seek the opinion and advice of the House of Commons before finally committing themselves as a Government to any set of proposals which might emerge? While normally the House would agree that any negotiation on an ordinary treaty should continue to its end, with the Government then presenting the treaty for ratification, in view of the importance of these negotiations, I urge the right hon. Gentleman to arrange a two-day debate prior to the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster finally committing his Government to a set of proposals at the end of these negotiations.

Mr. Whitelaw

I have nothing to add to what has been said on the subject.

Mr. Harold Wilson

Has not the right hon. Gentleman said that the Government intend to have a broad debate on a take-note Motion when the White Paper of the proposed terms is available, before any decision is taken? Will he bear in mind—and I am not sure whether this is what my hon. Friend is asking for—that in view of the practice of apparently settling one or two issues at a time and announcing acceptance it might be fruitful if there were talks, through the usual channels about a possible debate not on a White Paper but in advance of the next series of negotiations in Brussels? Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to give consideration to that?

Mr. Whitelaw

Yes, Sir, most certainly. I am prepared to have discussions through the usual channels on exactly how the matter should be handled to the best advantage of the House as a whole during all the preceding arrangements. Whatever may happen, I am most anxious to see that the House has the proper arrangements for debating these questions.

Mr. Chapman

Bearing in mind the recent instances of the destruction of so many buildings of architectural interest, highlighting and publicising a continuing disgraceful trend, and in view of the deep anxiety and bitterness felt by so many people, will my right hon. Friend arrange to have a short debate immediately after, if not before, the Whitsun Recess?

Mr. Whitelaw

I recognise some of the anxieties to which my hon. Friend refers, but I cannot offer time for a debate on the subject in the near future.

Mr. Ford

When does the Leader of the House intend to announce the composition of the Boyle Committee?

Mr. Whitelaw

As soon as possible, Sir.

Mr. Raison

Will my right hon. Friend find time for a debate on the important first Report of the Hospital Advisory Service?

Mr. Whitelaw

I recognise the importance of the Report. It is obviously one which right hon. and hon. Members will wish to consider carefully. Therefore, I cannot promise time for a debate at this stage.

Mr. Leadbitter

The Leader of the House has quite rightly helped us considerably with the debate on steel. A number of hon. Members have signed my Motion on the subject.

[That this House deplores the effect of Her Majesty's Government's policies and attitudes which are damaging the long-term development plans of the British Steel Corporation; asserts that the increasing levels of redundancy in the industry are unacceptable; declares that the lowest level of steel production for eight years could have been avoided; protests that Government interference on steel prices and public utterances of non-intervention are contradictory postures frustrating the good management of the industry and its production potential; regrets that no steps have been taken to reduce the importation of steel and steel pipes; objects to announcements of closures and redundancies in breach of assurances of prior consultation or without any statement in the House of Commons; and draws attention to the lack of Government policy to change the course of events in the steel industry at a time when the unemployment figures in the country have reached the highest level in 30 years.]

The statement about the deep-seated study by the Secretary of State concerns us. Therefore, in addition to assuring the House that he will convey our feeling on the matter to his right hon. Friend, while saying that he cannot commit his right hon. Friend, will the right hon. Gentleman take note that, if the Secretary of State makes a statement on the day of the debate after the warning today, that will be construed as having led the House into a situation where it cannot be prepared adequately to debate this serious matter? Therefore, will he indicate next week either to the House or through the usual channels whether the Secretary of State can make a statement?

Mr. Whitelaw

The hon. Gentleman has asked me to take note of his view. I know his interest in the matter, and certainly will take note of it. But he went on to draw from that various deductions and views as to what would or would not be suitable. I shall take note of that as well, without necessarily agreeing with the hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Marten

Further to the point raised by the Leader of the Opposition about a debate on specific items in the Common Market negotiations, my right hon. Friend will have observed with deep interest the reported—I repeat "reported"—terms of the sugar deal in those negotiations. Therefore, will he consider the excellent Motion signed by many hon. Members, including the right hon. Member for Kettering (Sir G. de Freitas), which demands firm assurances as a prerequisite for entry?

[That this House, while recognising that the six European Economic Community countries have a large surplus of sugar beet, realises also that all the developing Commonwealth sugar-producing countries are overwhelmingly dependent on the existing Commonwealth Sugar Agreement with the United Kingdom, both as to quantity and price, since they can neither significantly diversify their product nor their market; and therefore urges Her Majesty's Government to ensure that their unique situation is safeguarded during the current negotiations to join the European Economic Community as a pre-condition of entry.]

That would be a very good Motion for debate.

Mr. Whitelaw

I do not at this stage wish to go any further than what I said in reply to the Leader of the Opposition. I am prepared to discuss all these mattres through the usual channels. As to what has been reported on all these questions, hon. Members will obivously wish to await the statement of my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster on Monday, and thereafter to see what they feel.

Mr. Dalyell

The right hon. Gentleman yesterday gave us a very satisfactory, though interim, reply on the question of the system of the allocation of Gallery tickets. Will he refer the matter to the Services Committee? If so, when?

Mr. Whitelaw

I made two points to the hon. Gentleman yesterday in answering his Question. One was that if there were a widespread desire in the House that I should do so, I should, of course, refer the matter to the Services Committee. Second, I said that much of the remedy for the empty seats in the Gallery at Question Time lay in the hands of right hon. and hon. Members, in that if they were not using their admission orders they could return them to the Admission Order Office. I should like an opportunity to be given to see whether right hon. and hon. Members respond to that suggestion before I go any further with the matter. If they do not, and if the situation remains unsatisfactory, certainly I am prepared that the Services Committee should consider it. But even if it does, it cannot overcome the situation if hon. Members put the tickets in their pockets and do not hand them on when they are not using them.

Mr. Rost

When will my right hon. Friend hind time to debate the White Paper on commercial radio? When will he be able to announce the Government's legislative programme, bearing in mind the uncertainty in the forward planning necessary within the industry so that it can prepare itself for a smooth start to commercial radio?

Mr. Whitelaw

I cannot say when this will take place. I note its importance, and I hope that it will be fairly soon. I cannot give any indication at this stage.

Mr. Arthur Lewis

The Leader of the House in answer to a question referred to the statements being made in Brussels by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. As we know, in all these negotiations the right hon. and learned Gentleman gives Press conferences, makes radio broadcasts to this country, and takes part in discussion on the B.B.C. Does not the Leader of the House think that he and the Government owe it to the House to see that statements are made to the House on the same day or the day after the statements are made to Press correspondents? If the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster cannot do it, one of the Foreign Office Ministers should come here the day after the right hon. and learned Gentleman has made his statement in Brussels to keep the House informed. Why should the general public be informed, and not the House of Commons?

Mr. Whitelaw

My answer to the hon. Gentleman's first point is that I must have been even less clear in my expression than usual, because I was referring to statements by my right hon. and learned Friend in the House. As far as I know, I made no reference to his statements in Brussels. The hon. Gentleman suggested that I had made such a reference. If he reads HANSARD tomorrow he will find that is what he said. I have always made it clear that my right hon. and learned Friend would make statements in the House at the earliest possible moment after he returned. I believe that is what hon. Members wish, and it is what they have had on every occasion. It was made perfectly clear to the House on this occasion that he was going on to another meeting and therefore the earliest available opportunity would be on Monday. That is why my right hon. and learned Friend will make a statement on Monday, and I think that that is generally satisfactory to the House as a whole.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order I can allow two more questions from hon. Members who have already risen.

Mr. Hugh Jenkins

The Leader of the House will have noted Motion No. 539, on the value-added tax on food, in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, Central (Mr. Palmer).

[That this House, noting that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has announced that it is Her Majesty's Government's intention to introduce, independently of Great Britain's application to become a member of the European Economic Community, a value-added tax in 1973, and further noting that if this tax were to be applied to foodstuffs it would represent a major switch in fiscal policy which would have grave adverse effects on the living standards of the British people, especially the old, the sick and the lower-paid, therefore asks Her Majesty's Government for a categorical assurance that the value-added tax will not be applied to food.]

Is it the right hon. Gentleman's view that the impact of value-added tax should be taken into consideration in a debate upon the Common Market of the sort suggested by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition? Could that debate be so framed as to embrace that possibility?

Mr. Whitelaw

It is very dangerous for me to express my view on what may or may not be debatable in a particular debate. It is not for me to do so. Therefore, my view is of no more and no less value that that of any other right hon. or hon. Member. I would only say that if such debates take place on wide-ranging Motions it is inevitable that most of these matters can he discussed.

Mr. English

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind, on the question of broadcasting the proceedings of the House, that the House has already had a closed-circuit experiment on radio broadcasting, and that there is a great deal to be said for the House removing the ban on radio broadcasting of its proceedings as a stage on the way—or not on the way, as the case may be—to a partial solution to some of the problems of broadcasting the proceedings in other manners also?

Mr. Whitelaw

I note what the hon. Gentleman says. All these questions are very much a matter for the House as a whole to consider and decide as it thinks best. I am absolutely in the hands of the House in this matter. When there is a strong feeling throughout the House that the time has come to debate these matters and to decide what further course we should take, naturally I should be only too ready to provide time. I have not yet heard that very widespread desire, although, of course, I have noted the Motion signed by a large number of hon. Members.