HC Deb 29 March 1971 vol 814 cc1130-7
12 and 13. Mr. McBride

asked the Secretary of State for Wales (1) to what extent, at his meeting with the Welsh Council on 29th March, 1971, he discussed unemployment as a problem of social and industrial imbalance between the various areas of Wales;

(2) to what extent at his meeting with the Welsh Council on 19th March, 1971, he discussed the procurement of further financial investment in Welsh industry.

Mr. Peter Thomas

My dinner with the Council on 19th March afforded me the opportunity of reviewing generally its work over the past three years and of commenting on current problems in Wales. I understand that the Council will shortly be formally sending me its latest views on the economic situation, including problems of unemployment and investment.

Mr. McBride

Putting two Questions together when they are not related is a very bad thing. Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that it is desirable, if we are to assist in solving unemployment in Wales, to minimise the amount of migration of all types of skilled workers from the Principality, the loss of whom could cause serious industrial imbalance? Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that as a result of the high level of unemployment any further migration of skilled workers from Wales would place a serious strain upon Welsh local authorities, in that they would have to provide social services and amenities while at the same time suffering from the serious imbalance caused by a falling rate yield? Is not the Minister's duty, given the difficulty of obtaining investment in Wales, to see that a financial injection is given to Wales, where the policies of his party and the inattention of his party have resulted in things crashing around their ears? Could not he persuade the hopeless Government of which he is a member to do something about it?

Mr. Peter Thomas

I am just as concerned as the hon. Member about the high incidence of unemployment in Wales, which has persisted for many years. I am anxious to do all that is possible to bring that level down. But unemployment in Wales and the economic position of Wales cannot be isolated from that of the United Kingdom generally. As soon as the United Kingdom has an expanded economy and a reasonable rate of growth which is not being overrun by inflationary wage claims or undermined by industrial unrest, the unemployment rate will come down.

Mr. George Thomas

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the new feature that is causing alarm in Wales is the fact that new industries brought into the country are beginning to close down, even though there is no rundown in the basic industry of coal? Is the Minister further aware that his complacency, as shown in the reply that he gave me when he said that he would discuss the economic situation with the Welsh Council only if the matter was raised by others, is appalling, and that he needs to pull his socks up if he is to do his duty by Wales?

Mr. Peter Thomas

The right hon. Gentleman knows full well that when I went to see the Welsh Council it was in order to have dinner at the end of its meeting. I did not attend its meeting. I had some informal discussions with members of the Council. I addressed them, as I have told the House. I have already said that I am very concerned about unemployment in Wales. The right hon. Gentleman has heard of the policies of this Government. I am satisfied that they will pay dividends, and that unemployment in Wales will decrease.

Mr. John Morris

The Minister says that he is concerned about the high rate of unemployment in Wales. I want to know what he is doing about it. Does he agree that since 18th June no new decisions for further dispersal of Government establishments in Wales have been made? Will he confirm or deny that since that day action to bring 1,500 Ministry of Defence jobs to the Cardiff area has been stopped?

Mr. Peter Thomas

If the right hon. Gentleman wants to ask me a specific Question perhaps he will put one down. I should like notice of the matter before giving a firm answer.

Mr. Nicholas Edwards

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that the reasons for unemployment are varied, and that at this moment 250 people are losing their jobs in my constituency because of the cancellation of defence contracts by the previous Government?

Mr. Peter Thomas

There are many reasons for unemployment in Wales. The inheritance which this Government had has caused the difficulties that we are in at the moment. The right hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. George Thomas) knows—I shall give him a figure anyway—that from 1964 to when we took over in June, 1970, there were 68,000 fewer males in employment in Wales.

Mr. George Thomas

Is the Secretary of State aware that the time is running out when he can rely on those foolish excuses? He has been in power for nine months and the day has come when he must take responsibility for the mounting and dangerous unemployment in Wales. Is he further aware that it is absolutely staggering that he cannot tell my right hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon (Mr. John Morris) what has happened in terms of the Government's decision about defence employment in Cardiff?

Mr. Peter Thomas

The unemployment situation in Wales is of considerable concern to all of us, but the right hon. Gentleman must not exaggerate the situation or try to cause unnecessary despondency. The differential between the respective unemployment rates of Wales and Great Britain is less than it was a year ago. It was 1.3 points for the first quarter of this year, compared with 1.5 points for the first quarter of last year.

Mr. McBride

On a point of order. Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible opportunity.

14. Mr. John

asked the Secretary of State for Wales, what representations he has received regarding the March figures relating to Welsh unemployment; and what replies he has given.

25. Mr. Alan Williams

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received about the trend towards heavier unemployment in Wales.

Mr. Peter Thomas

Representatives of the South Wales Advisory Committee of the T.U.C. raised this matter with me on Friday. Representatives of the North Wales Advisory Committee made similar representations to my hon. Friend the Minister of State earlier this month. We expressed our concern about the high rates of unemployment which have prevailed in Wales for several years and discussed the current economic and industrial policies of the Government with them.

Mr. John

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the policies of which he seems proud—although he should not be—are the very reasons why the unemployment rate is accelerating? Will he now be candid with the House and admit that the substantial number of 68,000 lost jobs in Wales between 1964 and 1970 arose from the policies envisaged by the previous Conservative Government, for which they took no remedial steps?

Mr. Peter Thomas

The hon. Member talks about accelerating unemployment. The number of wholly unemployed in Wales was virtually unchanged between February and March, although in Great Britain as a whole it increased. In par- ticular, the number of males wholly unemployed in Wales declined. The hon. Member talks about the reasons for unemployment. The increase in Wales was due largely to a rise in the temporarily stopped. That was the aftermath of the postal strike, and the repercussions of other industrial disputes, particularly the Ford dispute.

Mr. Williams

Is the Minister aware that the answer that he has given does not conform to the facts, and that there has been a considerable increase in the underlying figures of wholly unemployed? Should he not be alarmed instead of complacent that, despite the fact that we have had an abnormally mild winter—one of the mildest winters since the war—and that the National Coal Board's pit closure programme is virtually completed, redundancy in Wales for the first 10 weeks has been running at a rate two-and-a-half times that of the annual rate in previous years, while the number of jobs in the pipeline has fallen alarmingly? Does he not realise that the people of Wales will not forgive his complacency and inaction at a time when the underlying unemployment figures are, if anything, being underestimated in Wales?

Mr. Peter Thomas

I am by no means complacent. I am very anxious to see the figures in Wales considerably improved, and I have every confidence that they will be. But the hon. Gentleman, who has a facility for bringing forward selected figures—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"]—might be interested to know that since the June election the percentage increase in unemployment in Wales has been rather less than it has been in Great Britain as a whole.

Sir A. Meyer

Is it not a fact that, quite regardless of the lamentable inheritance from the previous Government, if the policies now being advocated from the benches opposite—if they are policies which are being advocated—were followed, they would make it quite impossible for anyone to build up profitable industry in Wales, on which future employment prospects must be based?

Mr. Peter Thomas

It was quite clear when we took over office in June, 1970, that the policies which had been pursued by the Labour Party had failed, and that a change of direction was needed. That is what we are doing.

Mr. Williams

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Secretary of State has made an allegation that I have in some way selectively misled the House. What protection does a back bencher have against such an allegation, and am I able to ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman to explain that allegation?

Mr. Speaker

That is not a point of order, and I am afraid that it is not in my power to give the hon. Gentleman protection.

Mr. Jeffrey Thomas

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the unemployment situation is now so grave that he can no longer fall back on bromides and platitudes to explain it? Is he not losing credibility in the Principality because of his absurd and continued suggestion that the situation is the fault of the Previous Government? Is he not aware that the time has now come for his Government to produce an unemployment policy?

Mr. Peter Thomas

I have already told the House that I am concerned about the high level of unemployment in Wales—[Interruption.]—as I am about the high level of unemployment in the United Kingdom. I have no doubt that the Government's policies will have the effect of bringing down this high rate of unemployment. [HON. MEMBERS: "When."] As I have said, a lot of factors must be taken into account. If we can have growth which is not overrun by inflationary wage claims or industrial disputes, unemployment will go down.

15. Mr. Alec Jones

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will now make a ministerial broadcast explaining the effects of Government policies on unemployment and prices in Wales.

Mr. Peter Thomas

No, Sir.

Mr. Jones

Will the Chairman of the Tory Party not agree that, whilst the people of Wales have never had any reason to be grateful to the Tory Party, he could at least have taken this opportunity to make a Ministerial broadcast, and explain how the people now unemployed in Wales—and the figure is the highest March figure for many years— can benefit from the income tax reduction when it comes to meeting the increased prices which this Government are deliberately forcing on the people of Wales?

Mr. Peter Thomas

A Ministerial broadcast would be without precedent and would not be appropriate. I shall explain to the Welsh Grand Committee on 28th April.

Mr. George Thomas

I understand the Secretary of State's reluctance to go on Welsh television to defend the Government's record in Wales, but will he now tell the House why he is so coy about debating the matter? Will he now be prepared to debate the matter with me on Welsh television, as he was not prepared to do when invited, so that the Welsh people can hear?

Mr. Peter Thomas

The proper place for such a debate is in this House—[Interruption.]—or in the Welsh Grand Committee, and there will be an opportunity—[Interruption.]—for this debate on 28th April. I have discussed the Welsh economic scene on both Welsh radio and television.

Mr. Gower

Is not the problem of dealing with unemployment in Wales, which is a serious problem, rendered even more difficult by the fact that the Government also inherited a runaway inflation? Is it not appalling that hon. Members opposite should now be exaggerating the position, and so rendering the task even more difficult?

Mr. Peter Thomas

The Government inherited not only runaway inflation but short-term and medium-term debts to the extent of £1,500 million and the worst industrial relations scene since 1926.

28. Mr. Elystan Morgan

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he expects a rise or fall in the level of male employment in Wales up to the end of 1972.

Mr. Peter Thomas

I expect further new industry to be attracted to Wales as a result of the measures being undertaken by the Government. But, as the previous Administration's experience fully proved, detailed forecasts of changes in employment for a period nearly two years ahead are not possible.

Mr. Morgan

Putting shallow debating points aside, does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that after nine months of Tory Government there is an increase in the level of unemployment in Wales, that investment is stagnant and that the interest of industrialists outside Wales in Welsh industry is declining? Is it not perfectly clear, therefore, that the policies pursued by the Government are irrelevant to the problems of Wales?

Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman, as a person of integrity, tell the House candidly whether the policy of investment grants is conducive to raising the level of male employment in Wales or otherwise?

Mr. Peter Thomas

The policy of investment grants must not be considered in isolation. One must look at the whole package. I have no doubt that the changes which were announced by the Government will in the long run prove of benefit to Wales.