Computers (Hansard, 25 March 1971)

§ 7. Mr. Leslie Huckfield
asked the Secretary of State for Employment what proposals he has for the use of computers in his Department.

§ The Parliamentary Secretary to the Civil Service Department (Mr. David Howell)
The Department already uses computers for the compilation and processing of statistics, for the staff payroll, for making repayments of selective employment tax, and to a limited extent 853 for compiling lists of vacancies. Consideration is being given to using computers to assist the employment service more widely but no decisions have been taken.

§ Mr. Huckfield
I am grateful to the Parliamentary Secretary for that information. What proposals does his Department have for the computerisation of more personal information, particularly in matching vacancies with applicants? Furthermore, what track is his Department keeping of the computerised personal information services now being built up on personnel by many big British companies?

§ Mr. Howell
Since the autumn of 1970, lists of vacancies in the London area have been compiled by computer and circulated to employment exchanges in the London area. Arrangements have just been made to begin compiling a similar list of skilled vacancies nationwide, particularly to help with the Rolls-Royce situation. The question of personal information compiled by private firms raises broader issues which perhaps would be better touched on when we reach Question No. 8.

§ 8. Mr. Leslie Huckfield
asked the Secretary of State for Employment what proposals he has for the maintenance and preservation of accepted standards of confidentiality of personal information data stored on computers in his Departments.

§ Mr. David Howell
All personal information held by the Department, whether clerically or on computers, is treated as confidential and computer staff have recently been reminded of this. As an additional precaution, personal information stored in computers in the Department, except for the payroll records of staff, excludes the name of the person concerned, and the documents giving this information are held under separate control.

§ Mr. Huckfield
I am grateful to the Parliamentary Secretary for that information, but is he aware that those safeguards will not particularly enthuse or fool anybody? Is he aware that under the proposals in the Industrial Relations Bill personal information, particularly on 854 militants' activities, will become a very valuable commodity? There is the real prospect of factory spies increasing in number. Already two or three private information firms offer spy and espionage services on the factory floor. Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that the arrangements he has made will be adequate, because I am not?

§ Mr. Howell
I do not accept the hon. Gentleman's dramatised version of what will flow from the Industrial Relations Bill. On the question of confidentiality, I am aware of his very close and expert interest in this matter, and I confirm that the Government take it extremely seriously. The safeguards are very stringent. As I said, personal information on people is held under separate control, and anonymity is preserved in any information going out from the Department.

§ Mr. David Stoddart
Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that this matter is giving a great deal of concern to many people? With the growth of terminal units, as I believe they are called in computer work, it is possible for people to get extremely confidential information. I should like an assurance that the hon. Gentleman's Department is using a proper key system so that only people entitled to the information can get it.

§ Mr. Howell
I can give the hon. Gentleman the assurance that very high standards of confidentiality are observed. The Government recognise the strength of feeling on this very serious and important matter. In that light, the Government have said that they will take note of the recommendations of the Younger Committee and they have decided to carry out a major study which was initiated by a questionnaire going out from the Civil Service Department to ascertain all aspects of information held in Government Departments so that action can be taken.

§ Mr. Heffer
To return to the point made by my hon. Friend in relation to spying in industry, the right hon. Gentleman himself at one time was associated with a firm which offered services which implied spying in factories. Will the hon. Gentleman give us an assurance that this sort of activity will most certainly be discouraged by the Government, 855 and will he urge employers to refuse to use the services of such organisations?

§ Mr. Howell
I do not think that these implications arise on this Question at all, nor do the propositions that the hon. Member raised about the Industrial Relations Bill. These matters simply do not arise, and I do not think it necessary to give an assurance on matters which have been asked on questions which do not arise.

§ Mr. R. Carr
On a point of order. Since the hon. Member for Walton (Mr. Heffer) made a remark concerning me, should I be in order in giving an explanation about it? The implication is serious, and it happens to be seriously untrue.

§ Mr. Speaker
If the right hon. Gentleman wishes to develop that point of order further I would rather that he did it at the end of Questions.

§ Mr. Heffer
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. During Questions to the Department of Employment, the Secretary of State said that he would raise on a point of order later a matter to which I had referred. Are we to have that point of order, is this the time for it, at the end of Questions, or does it come after the business questions?

§ Mr. Speaker
Whether a right hon. or hon. Member raises a matter on a point of order is entirely for that Member. All the Chair can do is to suggest, with respect, that points of order are better not raised during Question Time.

§ Mr. Carr
As the hon. Gentleman has referred to that matter again, may I be allowed to raise with you, Mr. Speaker, the point on which I sought your guidance at the time?
In the course of a supplementary question to my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State, the hon. Gentleman referred to what he described as spying activities in industry, or industrial espionage—I forget the exact words—[HON. MEMBERS: "Spying."]—in industry alleged to be carried on by a company of which I was at one time a director. He gave me no notice of that charge, and I have not, therefore, the documentation with me, but, as this is a canard which has been raised a number of times 856 over recent years in certain documents published by the Labour Research Department, I should like to speak from my memory of the matter and express the facts briefly as I recall them. I feel that I am entitled to do that, Sir.
It is true that I was a director of the company called Securicor, and an executive of a subsidiary of that company, without authority, did offer a service which appeared to approximate to the undesirable kind of service to which the hon. Gentleman referred. The moment that service came to the notice of the board, the service was immediately withdrawn and the executive concerned, who had acted without authority, was disciplined.

§ Mr. Heffer
Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker—

Hon. Members
Withdraw!

§ Mr. Heffer
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. If the right hon. Gentleman feels aggrieved that I had not given him notice, I apologise. All I did was to refer to the fact that there was, or had been, an organisation, which supplied or suggested supplying, this type of spying service—an organisation with which the right hon. Gentleman had been associated in the past, and I asked for an assurance from the Government that they would discourage such activities on the part of any organisation in the future, particularly as spying could well become an important part of the industrial relations scene.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I think that the matter has now been disposed of.

§ Mr. John Wells
Disgraceful.