European Economic Community (Hansard, 22 March 1971)

§ 1. Mr. Raphael Tuck
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what price increases have been agreed by the Commission of the European Economic Community for this year.

§ The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Geoffrey Rippon)
None, Sir. The Commission of the European Community have made proposals about certain price increases and changes in the market structure, but these have yet to be agreed by the Council of Ministers.

§ Mr. Tuck
Has the right hon. and learned Gentleman any revised estimates for the E.E.C. budget over the next five years and for Britain's contribution to it?

§ Mr. Rippon
No, Sir.

§ Mr. Maclennan
Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman consider that the planned reduction in the number of uneconomic agricultural holdings in the Community over the next 10 years will lead to a diminution in the proportion of this country's contribution to the budget if British entry is agreed?

§ Mr. Rippon
I think that that is very likely. One of the matters that we have been discussing is the change in the size and shape of the budget in the course of years.

§ 2. Mr. Raphael Tuck
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what permanent safeguards for Anglo-Australian trade have been negotiated in the present discussions between Her Majesty's Government and the European Economic Community.

§ Mr. Rippon
We consider that Anglo-Australian trade will be adequately safeguarded by transitional arrangements, the details of which we are now negotiating.

§ Mr. Tuck
In view of the fact that the French permanent representative, Mr. Jean-Mare Boegner, stated last week that Britain's allowance of special facilities for the export of capital for the old 3 Commonwealth must cease and also that membership of the E.E.C. is incompatible with Britain's rôle in the sterling area, first, is it the right hon. and learned Gentleman's policy to continue to give Australia preferential access to the London capital market and, secondly, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman take off his rose-coloured spectacles and face the fact that the French want to do away with the sterling area altogether?

§ Mr. Rippon
This Question refers to trade. There are later Questions dealing with sterling. In any event, the hon. Gentleman has not correctly reported the French attitude.

§ Mr. Ronald Bell
Does all this mean that no permanent safeguards are being sought for Australia, and, if so, does not that constitute a breach in respect of both Australia and New Zealand of the Ottawa Agreements of 1958?

§ Mr. Rippon
In or out of the Community, no one has permanent trading safeguards. We are in close touch with all the Commonwealth Governments about these matters. Broadly speaking, they have always supported the reasons for British entry.

§ 3. Mr. Bruce-Gardyne
asked the Secretary for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what bilateral discussions he has had or intends to have, in the context of negotiations for the enlargement of the European Community, with the French Foreign Minister regarding the pricing structure of the common agricultural policy.

§ Mr. Rippon
I have not had, nor have I plans to have, bilateral discussions specifically on this subject.

§ Mr. Bruce-Gardyne
Will my right hon. and learned Friend nevertheless make sure that the French Government are aware that the French economy has been the principal victim of the artificially inflated agricultural price levels within the Community and that, in the pursuit of less artificially inflated agricultural prices, British and French interests are identical and not opposed?

§ Mr. Rippon
All these matters are the subject of general discussion from time to time and no doubt will continue to be. They are not a matter for these negotiations.

§ Mr. Pentland
Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that history is now repeating itself in these negotiations? Is not it becoming more and more obvious that this country could never accept the demands made by France in respect of British membership of the Common Market, and are not the present negotiations becoming more and more a futile exercise?

§ Mr. Rippon
I do not accept that observation. I think that the hon. Gentleman must await the outcome of the negotiations.

§ 4. Mr. Farr
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs to what extent the Code Napoleon is likely to apply to the United Kingdom should she join the European Economic Community.

§ Mr. Rippon
The Code Napoleon will not apply in the United Kingdom should we join the European Economic Community.

§ Mr. Farr
I am greatly reassured to hear my right hon. and learned Friend say that. Will he be a little more forthcoming and say what the position is likely to be in the long term should we enter Europe, when Europe becomes geared to a federal basis?

§ Mr. Rippon
I thought that I had been clear. The Code Napoleon will not apply. We have had union with Scotland for a long time and have not managed to harmonise our legal systems. The common law will still apply if we join the Community.

§ 5. Mr. Farr
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he expects to visit Mauritius in order to ascertain their problems associated with the United Kingdom application to join the European Economic Community.

§ Mr. Rippon
I have at present no plan to visit Mauritius.

§ Mr. Farr
Will my right hon. and learned Friend consider changing his mind? Mauritius is the biggest contributor to the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement, and no country in the Agreement is so dependent on sugar as is Mauritius. Does not my right hon. and learned 5 Friend think that there is an omission here which it is not too late to rectify?

§ Mr. Rippon
As my hon. Friend knows I have done my best to visit as many countries of the Commonwealth as I can. I am quite aware of the extreme dependence of Mauritius on sugar. I made it perfectly clear to the conference at Brussels on 16th March that that was so.

§ Mr. Hattersley
To return to the question which I asked the right hon. and learned Gentleman after his return from the Caribbean, may we be assured that all the Commonwealth sugar producers will know what their post-1974 future is likely to be before we accept the Treaty of Rome or accede to the Community rather than live in hope after our entry that after 1974 things will turn out all right?

§ Mr. Rippon
I have explained to the Community that some assurances must be given for the period after 1974 because of the nature of the cane sugar crop, which has to be planned far ahead. We want what the Jamaican Minister for Trade described to me as bankable assurances.

§ Mr. Marten
Would one of the assurances be that Mauritius would retain her quota of sugar?

§ Mr. Rippon
That is what we are negotiating about. We are negotiating about the quantities which can come into the enlarged Community from the developing countries of the Commonwealth, including Mauritius.

§ Mr. Alfred Morris
Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman confirm not only that it is quantified access which he must negotiate about but that vague assurances are no good to countries as dependent on this crop as Mauritius?

§ Mr. Rippon
The hon. Gentleman is quite correct, and I think I have said so three times already this afternoon.

§ 6. Mr. Turton
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has informed members of the European Economic Community that after entry Great Britain will seek changes in the Community's institutions; and what reactions he has received from the several countries of the European Economic Community.

§ Mr. Rippon
No, Sir. If we become a member of the enlarged Community we shall play a full rôle in the development of the Community's institutions.

§ Mr. Turton
How does my right hon. and learned Friend reconcile that reply with the statement of the Prime Minister on 12th February that he intended to refashion new institutions to suit our needs? Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that the Prime Minister's statement gave great encouragement that, should we enter the Community, we should reduce the bureaucratic nature of the Commission and also reform its agricultural policy?

§ Mr. Rippon
My right hon. Friend asked me a specific Question about what I had told the Community. I have not discussed this matter with the Community, because it does not arise in the context of the negotiations. Both the present Government and their predecessors made it clear that we shall wish to play a full part in the development of the institutions, and these might well include institutions of a new kind, but we take a practical approach to these problems.

§ Mr. Leonard
Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman confirm that it is open to any member of the E.E.C. to propose changes in the institutions at any time?

§ Mr. Rippon
There are provisions for amending the Treaty. There is provision, for example, in Article 236.

§ 7. Mr. Turton
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he consulted with other member nations of the Sterling Area before announcing that the decision on the future of the Sterling Area should be taken after, and not in the course of, the current negotiations with the European Economic Community.

§ Mr. Rippon
Her Majesty's Government naturally maintain close contacts with member nations of the Sterling Area. If my right hon. Friend is referring to the fact that the rôle of sterling is not a subject for the current negotiations for our entry into the European Economic Community, but one only for discussion with them, I would remind him that this follows from a proposal by the Six themselves.

§ Mr. Turton
Will my right hon. and learned Friend make it clear that it is in the interests of the developing countries that sterling should continue as a reserve currency and that to betray those interests, at the behest of any one member of the European Economic Community, would not he well accepted by the people of the developing countries or of this country?

§ Mr. Rippon
The future of sterling as a reserve currency is not a matter for these negotiations. We have said that we are happy to have discussions about sterling, and in the context of capital movements it is obviously a proper topic for consideration. But on the rôle of sterling, we take the view expressed by the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) who, in 1967, when Chancellor of the Exchequer, said that whether in its international or its domestic aspect, we are ready for change.

§ Mr. Shore
How can the right hon. and learned Gentleman exclude consideration of the sterling area from his discussions in Brussels when, as he well knows, questions such as that asked earlier about the preferential access of Australia to the United Kingdom capital market is bound to conflict with preferential arrangements for Common Market countries which we have to assume if we join?

§ Mr. Rippon
It is a relevant question in the context of capital movement. It is understandable that the Community should be concerned at what would happen during the transitional period about capital movements and whether we should, if we operated exchange controls, operate them to the detriment of the Community and to the favour of the sterling area. That is the kind of question which is being discussed.

§ Mr. Biffen
Will my right hon. and learned Friend confirm that he welcomes the initiative which the French have recently taken in having sterling discussed at these negotiations? In particular, will he confirm that he accepts, broadly speaking, the outline of the situation indicated by the French and quoted by the hon. Member for Watford (Mr. Raphael Tuck) in his first supplementary question today.

§ Mr. Rippon
All these exchanges are confidential, but certainly I am not surprised that this matter should come up for discussion.

§ Mr. Healey
Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman accept that we on this side of the House recognise that some change in the reserve rôle of sterling is required, although, as we said in the last debate, it is a complex matter and might have to be negotiated in an I.M.F. rather than in a Common Market context? Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that the reference to sterling made by the French representative last Thursday can be calculated only to make successful negotiation this year impossible, and will he make it clear to the French Government that this cannot be a matter for discussion and decision —or, rather, for decision as well as discussion—during this bout of negotiations?

§ Mr. Rippon
I hold to the views which the Community has itself expressed about the extent to which sterling and its future could properly come to be discussed in the context of the negotiations.

§ Mr. Raphael Tuck
On a point of order. In my supplementary question to Question No. 2 I asked the Minister a question relating to M. Jean-Mare Boegner's statement that membership of the Community was incompatible with Britain's rôle in the sterling area. The Minister replied that that Question would come later, but he has not answered it.

§ Mr. Speaker
That is not a point of order.

§ 11. Mr. Blaker
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement about the recent consultations of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster with the Canadian Government regarding possible British membership of the European Economic Community.

§ Mr. Rippon
I have nothing to add to the statement I made to the House on 18th March.—[Vol. 813, c. 1659–1662.]

§ Mr. Blaker
Did the Canadian Government make any suggestions for alternatives to British entry into the Community?

§ Mr. Rippon
No, Sir. The Canadian Government, like the Canadian people 9 I met, acknowledged the advantage which would be given to them and the Commonwealth by the creation of a stronger and more united Western Europe.

§ 13. Mr. Lane
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will make a further statement on the progress of the Common Market negotiations.

§ 18. Mr. St. John-Stevas
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will make a statement on the progress of the Common Market negotiations.

§ 24. Mr. Barnes
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a further statement on the progress of the negotiations for Great Britain to join the European Economic Community.

§ Mr. Rippon
I have nothing to add to the statement I made to the House on 18th March.—[Vol. 813, c. 1659–1662.]

§ Mr. Lane
Is it not clear that a large majority of hon. Members will wish my right hon. and learned Friend success at the next round of Ministerial talks? Meanwhile, would he consider again the desirability of making a Ministerial broadcast, in which he could emphasise not only the strong line which he is taking in Brussels but also the positive advantages of membership for this country, which the public are well able to appreciate when they are properly explained?

§ Mr. Rippon
I am grateful for my hon. Friend's good wishes and I hope that the various statements which I make to the House serve that purpose even better.

§ Mr. St. John-Stevas
May I press my right hon. and learned Friend further on the question of sterling? How is what he told us today reconcilable with reports in such papers as The Times and the Observer that France has insisted on the future of sterling becoming a principal matter for the negotiations, which cannot be concluded until that is decided?

§ Mr. Rippon
I am not responsible for Press statements or Press comment. All I say is that we reached agreement with the Community that the future rôle of 10 sterling would not be a matter for direct negotiation but, of course, that there would be discussions on matters which were relevant to the negotiations.

§ Mr. Barnes
Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman say what assessments he has been able to make during the negotiations of the Community's attitude towards overseas aid; and to what extent he thinks the Community will see enlargement as an opportunity to mount more effective overseas aid policies?

§ Mr. Rippon
The Community has a very good record on overseas aid, and I certainly hope that if the Community were enlarged we should, all together, be able to do a great deal more than is being done now for the developing countries.

§ Sir G. Nabarro
My right hon. and learned Friend constantly says that he is not responsible for Press statements and, of course, he is not, but is it not a fact that the French have said quite unequivocally that the price of British entry must be the abandonment of the reserve rôle of sterling? In these circumstances, which are fundamental to the whole of Britain's national economy, would not my right hon. and learned Friend himself consider abandoning equivocation and making a perfectly clear statement that we do not in any circumstances propose, inside or outside the Common Market, to abandon the rôle of sterling?

§ Mr. Rippon
As to the first part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question, all I can say is that these things have not been said to me. As to the second part, if my hon. Friend studies what has been said by successive Chancellors of the Exchequer, and what we said in the debate on 20th and 21st January of this year, he will see that we have made it perfectly clear that we are willing over the years to contemplate changes in the rôle of sterling.

§ Mrs. Renée Short
Is it not clear that the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster has accepted, for example, a common agricultural policy which, in any case, is against the policy of this side of the House; that most people are now aware both of the short-term and the long-term effects of entry into the Common Market and that all of them, or a majority, are 11 opposed to it? Is it not clear, therefore, that he should stop this messing about trying to get in, and should now concentrate on dealing with the country's economic problems, which need urgent solution?

§ Mr. Rippon
On 8th May, 1967, the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, then Prime Minister, said—as will be seen in c. 1066 of the OFFICIAL REPORT—and I think I quote him accurately, that he would be misleading the House if he gave the impression that the common agricultural policy was negotiable.

§ Mr. Bruce-Gardyne
Can my right hon. and learned Friend confirm, contrary to what has been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro) and others, that the existence of the sterling area is an encumbrance on the British economy and not a benefit?

§ Mr. Rippon
I would not go as far as that. There is no doubt, as we have always said, that we must in the years ahead contemplate changes. Those changes may take place within the context of a European political and monetary integration or, as the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) said, in the context of international monetary arrangements. But all these things have been very thoroughly debated and discussed, and I do not think that there is any misunderstanding, or that there need be any misunderstanding, about the position.

§ Mrs. Hart
Further to the supplementary question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Chiswick (Mr. Barnes), can the right hon. and learned Gentleman tell us how far he has considered the implications of the contribution that would be necessary to the European Development Fund, and how far we should need to increase our own bilateral aid programme, taking account of that, in order to maintain our traditional obligations, particularly to India and Pakistan?

§ Mr. Rippon
We are discussing what our contribution should be to the European Development Fund. Obviously, we shall be contributors and to the extent that aid is given under that umbrella we shall take that into account in determin- 12 ing our own bilateral aid programme as it develops. But there is no reason to suppose that one is substituting for the other.

§ 16. Mr. Marten
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether, in the light of recent developments in the negotiations, he will reconsider his decision that there is no need to consider alternatives to entry into the European Economic Community.

§ Mr. Rippon
The present Government, like their predecessors, considered the alternatives to an application to enter the European Communities and decided that the policy which best met the national interest, as that of the rest of Europe and the free world, was to apply for membership and to seek the enlargement of the Communities.

§ Mr. Marten
That being so, is it not extraordinary for one, when buying a house, to tell the vendor that one will not buy any other house? As negotiations become daily more hopeless, is it not time that the Government were considering—just considering—alternatives?

§ Mr. Rippon
But we are telling them that this is the house we like. If we are unable to negotiate for that house, we shall certainly have to contemplate doing without it.

§ Mr. Jay
As even the Foreign Secretary has said that we are not prepared to hang about on these negotiations indefinitely, are the Government now considering a constructive policy that we should pursue if these negotiations were to break down, which is clearly now possible?

§ Mr. Rippon
No, Sir. We are proceeding on the basis that, given the political will, which is stated to exist on all sides, reasonable men could settle issues outstanding in these negotiations in a fairly short space of time.

§ 17. Mr. Knox
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he now expects that the negotiations on British membership of the European Economic Community will be completed and the terms known.

§ 45. Sir D. Walker-Smith
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he now expects 13 the negotiations in respect of the European Economic Community to end and with what result.

§ Mr. Rippon
As I told the House in my statement on 18th March, I believe that it is entirely reasonable and possible that we should reach agreement with the Communities on the main issues at or shortly after the next Ministerial meeting. —[Vol. 813, c. 1659–62.]

§ Mr. Knox
Will my right hon. and learned Friend confirm that many of the negotiating points have already been agreed?

§ Mr. Rippon
That is so.

§ Mr. Pavitt
Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman confirm that although he has made an assessment of the social security position he has made no assessment whatever of the effect on the National Health Service? Will he now make an estimate of the effect on our hospital service when consultants' qualications are mutually acceptable and when because most consultants are part-time there will be a heavy drain on the N.H.S. because of consultants going abroad to perform operations and being able to do so within only an hour's travelling time?

§ Mr. Rippon
That point does not arise out of this Question. I understand that there are anxieties on this score. The Community has not gone far in dealing with some of the professional matters which the hon. Gentleman raises. If he will table a Question on the subject, I will try to give him a full reply.

§ Mr. Fry
When the negotiations are completed, what steps will be taken to test public opinion? What steps will be taken to see that public opinion supports our entry into the E.E.C., as was promised before the General Election?

§ Mr. Rippon
We must await the outcome of the negotiations and then, as any Government must, put these matters to Parliament.

§ 22. Mr. Sutcliffe
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if, in order to avoid weakening British regional policies with the consequence of increased regional disparities, he will list minimum British requirements in this matter and submit them in the 14 form of a Protocol to the Treaty of Rome, as did existing signatories when the Treaty was negotiated.

§ Mr. Rippon
Her Majesty's Government accept the Treaties of the Communities and the decisions which have flowed from them. The Treaty as it stands makes provision for regional policies.

§ Mr. Sutcliffe
May I draw my right hon. and learned Friend's attention to the three-year research study carried out by Glasgow University which, apart from showing that the present regional policies pursued in this country are out of line with regional policies for growth zones pursued by the E.E.C., shows that for all its economic growth, the Community has worsened the problems of the regions at its periphery, with income per head being six and a half times greater in the richest than in the poorest regions and the highest unemployment being 70 times greater in the poorest regions? Does my right hon. and learned Friend not appreciate the concern that we in the North of Britain feel lest Europe should make us more peripheral than we already are?

§ Mr. Rippon
There is no need for this anxiety. A wide range of development policies are pursued by the Six. As long as there was not a co-ordinated policy, we should pursue our own policies. However, Articles 92–94 of the Treaty make provision for regional policies. These have not been fully utilised yet, but we for our part hope that they will be utilised in due course; and that will be a factor which will change the size and shape of the Community's budget.

§ 25. Mr. Jay
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what permanent safeguards for British trade with Australia, Canada, India and Pakistan he has proposed in his negotiations with the European Economic Community.

§ Mr. Rippon
We consider that British trade with Australia, Canada, India and Pakistan will be adequately safeguarded by transitional arrangements, the details of which we are now negotiating. The position of India and Pakistan will be improved by the offers made under the U.N.C.T.A.D. Generalised Preference Scheme. Moreover, the Community has indicated its readiness to examine with India and Pakistan after enlargement 15 problems in the field of trade with a view to reaching appropriate solutions and affirmed that it will seek to expand and reinforce trading relationships with these countries.

§ Mr. Jay
Does that mean that the Government are not even seeking any safeguards for British trade with these four major Commonwealth countries?

§ Mr. Rippon
The Question refers to "permanent safeguards". Nobody has permanent safeguards of that kind.

§ 26. Mr. Deakins
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs to what extent his proposal to the European Economic Community that the United Kingdom contribution to the European Economic Community Budget in the first year of a transitional period should be 3 per cent. was based on his assessment of what the United Kingdom could afford to pay.

§ Mr. Rippon
It was based on what we thought reasonable and equitable.

§ Mr. Deakins
Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman confident that under a Conservative Government the United Kingdom will be able to afford the 7 per cent. to 8 per cent. contribution which is likely to emerge as the compromise figure at the end of the negotiations?

§ Mr. Rippon
We shall be able to afford whatever is reasonable and equitable.

§ 27. Mr. Deakins
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions have taken place with the European Economic Community about the United Kingdom membership of the European Development Bank; what amount the United Kingdom will have to contribute to the capital of this bank; and what amount will have to be contributed to the reserves of this bank.

§ Mr. Rippon
If the hon. Member is referring to the European Investment Bank, we have reached agreement with the Community on the principle of British membership and are still discussing the modalities with them. I shall inform the House of the outcome when the discussions are complete.

§ Mr. Deakins
Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman take care to avoid any 16 further drain on the capital reserves of this country, apart from what we shall lose under the free-movement-of-capital provisions? Does he have in mind any maximum figure for our contribution?

§ Mr. Rippon
We shall certainly take our proportionate share of the capital of the bank. At present the capital of the bank is 1,000 million units of account, of which 25 per cent. are paid up.

§ 28. Mr. Raymond Fletcher
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if, in the current negotiations with the European Economic Community, he will insist that the unanimity rule within the European Economic Community's Council of Ministers should apply to all decisions taken on the harmonisation of rates of indirect and direct taxation.

§ Mr. Rippon
Yes, Sir.

§ Mr. Fletcher
Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that that gives me a certain amount of comfort? So much has already been conceded at Brussels that the unanimity rule is perhaps the only thing left to guarantee our national interest. As the French are now approaching these negotiations with something of the metallic obduracy of a one-armed bandit, is he aware that this Question is totally superfluous?

§ Mr. Rippon
Why, then, did the hon. Gentleman ask it? It seems reasonable to me, though he would have found the answer had he looked at Article 100 of the Treaty of Rome, which provides for unanimous decisions in matters of this kind.

§ Sir G. Nabarro
In the course of the agreement which my right hon. and learned Friend says he has already reached with the Community on financial matters, has he pawned Australia's free access to the British capital market in exchange for other hypothetical financial advantages in Europe? Will he not say in a forthright fashion that the Australians will always be able to come here for their capital without prejudice from any of the arrangements made in Europe?

§ Mr. Rippon
The answer to the first part of that supplementary question is "No, Sir". The answer to the second 17 part is that we must have discussions about these transitional arrangements in regard to capital movements.