Housing Rents and Subsidies (Hansard, 17 March 1971)

§ 7. Mr. McCartney
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what estimate he has now made of the weekly increase in council house rents, on the basis that the 1394 housing subsidies to the burghs of Clydebank, Bearsden, Milngavie, Kirkintilloch and Cumbernauld and the county of Dunbarton, are abolished

§ 8. Mr. Gourlay
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what estimate he has now made of the average weekly increase in council rents needed for existing dwellings on the basis that housing subsidies are abolished; and what is the estimated weekly increase needed to offset the subsidy on houses under construction on 1st October, 1970, in the burgh of Kirkcaldy.

§ 27. Mr. John Robertson
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what estimate he has now made of the weekly increase in council house rents needed on the basis that housing subsidies to Paisley are abolished.

§ 28. Mr. John Smith
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what estimate he has now made of the weekly increase in council house rents needed on the basis that housing subsidies to Lanarkshire are abolished.

§ 29. Dr. Miller
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what will be the average increase in rent of Scottish Special Housing Association and municipal houses in Glasgow when Government housing subsidies are abolished.

§ Mr. Gordon Campbell
I am making no such estimates because, as I have frequently stated, the Government have no intention of abolishing housing subsidies. They are to be redirected so that more help is given where it is needed.
If hon. Members opposite are advocating the abolition of all housing subsidies, I hope they will let me have details of their proposals.

§ Mr. McCartney
The highly supercilious replies which the right hon. Gentleman constantly gives, orally and in writing, have slightly tarnished the image we once had of him as a benign, friendly Tory. He has said that council tenants in Scotland make a 35 per cent. contribution compared with the 70 per cent. contribution made in England. I put it to him that that places an obligation on him to set out the relative positions of council house tenants in Scotland paying the existing rents with existing subsidies and future council house tenants who 1395 will pay the kind of rents and subsidies which he has in mind. I put it to the right hon. Gentleman that this is a graduated—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I think that the hon. Gentleman has put enough.

§ Mr. McCartney
This is a graduated process of abolishing housing subsidies in Scotland.

§ Mr. Campbell
The hon. Gentleman has become thoroughly confused between what is contributed by the ratepayer, with which I was dealing in previous replies, and what is contributed by the Exchequer, with which all these Questions which are being taken together are concerned. The questions are as misleading about the facts and our intentions as is the hon. Gentleman's impression of me as being a benign and friendly figure.

§ Mr. Gourlay
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Government have no mandate from the Scottish people for a higher rents policy? I have advocated abolishing not housing subsidies but the Tory Government. Does the right hon. Gentleman deny that the Government intend to raise council house rents in Scotland by 10s. a week for seven years, and that, even with a rent rebate scheme, council tenants will be paying very much more for their accommodation than they are now?

§ Mr. Campbell
We are advocating not a high rents policy but a true rents policy. The scheme is being considered in discussions with the local authority associations and, as they are confidential, I cannot go into figures until the discussions have been completed.

§ Mr. John Smith
The Secretary of State talks about redirecting Government subsidies when we know that the truth is that he is reducing Government subsidies. Can he confirm that it is the Government's intention to reduce the amount of money paid by the Exchequer to local authorities in respect of local authority housing? Can he give some very vague indication—we ask for no more—of by how much the amount is likely to be reduced, because this is a matter of serious concern to people who live in council houses in Scotland?

§ Mr. Campbell
There is no intention to reduce; that has been made clear. At 1396 Question Time three weeks ago a Question was tabled by, I think, the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton) referring to the gradual increase in the amount to be made available in future years for this purpose.

§ 9 and 10. Mr. Douglas
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) if he will now estimate the average weekly increase in rents of local authority houses in Clackmannanshire of the immediate removal of the rate subsidy element and the Exchequer subsidy element, respectively;

§ 11. Mr. Strang
asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if Government housing subsidies were removed and local authority rate contributions to housing revenue accounts ceased, what estimate he has now made of the average level of council rents in Edinburgh.

§ Mr. Gordon Campbell
I am making no such estimates because the Government do not intend to abolish Exchequer housing subsidies. They will be redirected so that more help is given where it is needed.
We also intend to lighten the very heavy housing burden on Scottish ratepayers, but I cannot say more before our current discussions with the local authority associations have been completed.

§ Mr. Douglas
Is the right hon. Gentleman asking the House to believe that he cannot calculate two or three quite simple statistics which could be obtained from the authorities' housing revenue accounts? Or is he afraid that such information would disclose that the rents of local authority houses in Scotland will rise by between 100 and 200 per cent. if the Government's policy is carried out? If—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I think that the hon. Gentleman has put enough.

§ Mr. Douglas
I tabled two Questions, Mr. Speaker, and they have been answered together.

§ Mr. Speaker
The hon. Gentleman has already asked two supplementary questions.

§ Mr. Campbell
Because the policy of abolishing subsidies referred to in the Question is not to be carried out by the Government, estimates have not been made and I have no intention of making them. [Interruption.] Housing subsidies are not to be abolished. A comprehensive rebate scheme to help all council tenants who qualify for such schemes and a scheme for the private sector are being worked out in consultation with those concerned.

§ Mr. Strang
If as a consequence of the Government's new housing policy there are swingeing increases in council rents, will the Government take action to safeguard tenants who will not be covered by rent rebate schemes?

§ Mr. Campbell
If there are rises by reasonable steps each year, as I have stated in the House on several occasions, the rent rebate scheme which will be worked out—and an excellent model has been presented by the Brownlie Committee—will deal with questions of hardship and people's inability to pay rents.

§ Mr. Ross
Is it the policy of the Secretary of State not to answer a Question if he does not like it? The Questions ask what rents would be if the subsidies were abolished. They do not ask him to abolish subsidies. The right hon. Gentleman should be able to make this straightforward calculation. How can he say that subsidies will not be reduced when he told the Press on 28th October, and promised further details later, that he would save between £10 million and £20 million on housing subsidies by the mid-1970s?

§ Mr. Campbell
I have stated several times in the House that if the present system had continued unchanged the amount would have escalated enormously.