TOBACCO SMOKING (REPORT OF ROYAL COLLEGE OF PHYSICIANS) (Hansard, 16 March 1971)

§ 23. Mr. CRONIN
To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will make a statement on his talks with the cigarette manufacturers; and what further steps he intends to take to reduce the deaths and ill-health arising from smoking.

§ 30. Sir G. NABARRO
To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will now make a further statement on the Report of the Royal College of Physicians on Tobacco Smoking, having regard to the commencement of the Committee Stage of the Tobacco and Snuff (Health Hazards) Bill, scheduled for Wednesday, 17th March, 1971.

§ 48. Mr. DEAKINS
To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services what is the annual expenditure by his Department on anti-tobacco smoking propaganda; and what plans he has to increase this amount.

§ 53 and54. Miss LESTOR
To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services (1) if he will enter into discussions with public transport concerns, with a view to the prohibition of cigarette smoking on buses, trains and aircraft;
(2) if he will enter into discussions with those concerned, with a view to the prohibiting of smoking in cinemas.

§ 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20. Sir G. NABARRO
To ask the Secretary of State for Social Services (1) whether he will ask hospital authorities to discourage smoking in hospitals;
(2) whether he will request local authorities to arrange for more positive action to be taken to discourage cigarette smoking;
(3) whether he will ask National Health Service doctors to inform their patients of the health consequences of smoking;
(4) whether he will seek to enlist the help of television companies in discouraging cigarette smoking;
(5) what plans he has for dissuading young people from developing smoking habits;
1190 (6) whether he will request life insurance companies to consider offering lower premiums for non-smokers.

§ The Secretary of State for Social Services (Sir Keith Joseph)
With permission Mr. Speaker I will now answer Question Nos. ^*23, ^*30, ^*48, ^*53, ^*54 and unstarred Question Nos. 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20 together.
I welcome this opportunity to make a statement to the House on the report of the Royal College of Physicians on Tobacco Smoking. I acknowledge widespread interest on both sides of the House and the particular concern of my hon. Friend the Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro).
As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister told the House on 2nd February, inter-departmental discussions on all the implications of the report are being urgently pursued. I had already opened discussions with the tobacco industry before the report was published, and I am glad to be able to tell the House that these have reached a satisfactory conclusion.
The tobacco manufacturers have agreed voluntarily—and I would like to pay a tribute to the responsible and helpful way in which they have approached these discussions—to print in clear type a warning on each cigarette packet that, and I quote the words agreed, "Smoking can damage your health". According to the design of the packet, this will either be placed on both edge-sides of the packet, or, if on one side only, it will be presented with greater emphasis. In addition, each cigarette advertisement will carry a clear statement drawing attention to the warning notice on packets. A detailed code of practice is to be agreed with my Department. This agreement does not cover imported cigarettes which account for less than half of one per cent. of the cigarettes sold in this country.
The industry has agreed to the establishment of a standing scientific liaison committee, composed of some scientists appointed by it and others appointed by me. This committee will keep under review the search for less dangerous kinds of smoking and will devise satisfactory methods of determining for publication the tar and nicotine yield of the various brands of cigarette on the market. My Department will seek to assist the industry 1191 to identify acceptable methods of determining whether new smoking materials are in fact less dangerous.
I am suggesting to hospital and local health authorities ways in which they can discourage smoking, including setting aside certain areas in which there should be no smoking. The Chief Medical Officer is writing to all doctors on the subject. Perhaps the most important aspect is to dissuade the young from starting to smoke, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science and I are considering how to tackle this very difficult problem.
In the next few days I shall be approaching those responsible for public transport, cinemas, theatres and the like to ask them to set aside more accommodation for non-smokers, and inviting the life insurance companies, in the light of the Royal College's report, to consider the possibility of lower premiums for non-smokers.
The Government wish the dangers of cigarette smoking to be widely understood. I hope, therefore, to enlist the help of those responsible for television programmes. I propose to supplement the work of the Health Education Council, which has spent £100,000 on smoking publicity in the current financial year, by providing it with additional money to mount a short but intensive television campaign to bring the risks involved in cigarette smoking to families in their homes.
The manufacturers are prepared to embark at once on printing the agreed notices provided that they can be assured that different requirements will not be imposed. On this assumption packets carrying the warning notice will begin to appear in the shops this summer. The television campaign will be timed to coincide with their appearance in quantity. On this assumption virtually all packets and advertisements will carry notices by the end of the year.
My right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Scotland and Wales are associated with the action I have outlined.

§ Mr. Cronin
While I should like to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on the progress that he has made so far is this important matter, may I ask whether he agrees that experience in the 1192 United States shows that these vague warnings are of somewhat limited value? Would it not be better if the warnings on the packets and advertisements referred to the specific diseases which are likely to be caused by cigarette tobacco?

§ Sir K. Joseph
I thought it right to have a short warning which would be easily taken in by the eye rather than to cover a larger range of warnings which would not be so visible on a relatively small surface.

§ Sir G. Nabarro
Does my right hon. Friend agree that his arrangements have no contractual validity whatever, whereas the Private Member's Bill, backed by all parties in the House, has statutory implications?
Secondly, does my right hon. Friend agree that the difference between us is very considerable in that his statement today relates only to cigarettes, whereas the Bill before the House covers tobacco and all tobacco products, including cigarettes?
Thirdly, my right hon. Friend mentioned one half of one per cent. Will he be absolutely implicit and say that that is a figure relating only to cigarettes? But if it is a matter of tobacco and tobacco products, including cigarettes, has my right hon. Friend, for example, reached a voluntary agreement on the hot line with Mr. Fidel Castro to conform to all the requirements which he proposes to impose on manufacturers in this country?

§ Sir K. Joseph
I have no doubt that the industry, which have together pledged its word to the Government, will fulfil its pledges. The agreement which I have entered into will be subject to a code, which will be published. My hon. Friend's Bill proposes to give the Minister considerable discretion. I have chosen to take discretion in reaching this agreement, which the Government think is a very proper first reaction to the report of the Royal College of Physicians. The Bill will delay the appearance of any warning notices in the shops, because the manufacturers cannot be expected to start on the very large printing process until they know what requirements are to be imposed upon them. Finally, it is the opinion of the Royal College, with which the Government agree, that pipe 1193 and cigar smoking present altogether smaller orders of danger than cigarette smoking. That is why, on the advice of the Royal College, this agreement concentrates on cigarette smoking.

§ Mr. Deakins
I welcome the right hon. Gentleman's assurance about more money being spent on anti-tobacco propaganda, but can he assure us that there will be money made available in each successive year, and that this will be the start of a sustained and continuous campaign, particularly among young people and school children, and that it will not be something which we do for a few months while tobacco packets have the advertisements put on them and not thereafter?

§ Sir K. Joseph
The hon. Gentleman is on to a very valid point, that the effective impact tends to diminish. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has inaugurated an inter-departmental study of all the implications of the Royal College's report. The first television campaign will be monitored. We shall have to wait for the result of that and the outcome of the inter-departmental study before we decide what further steps, if any, are needed.

§ Miss Lestor
Is the Secretary of State aware that the overtures which he is making regarding the prohibiting, perhaps, of smoking in many public places will be welcomed not only by people who are trying to give up smoking but by those of us who have never smoked? Has he considered the question of children obtaining cigarettes from slot machines? Is he prepared perhaps to consider the removal of slot machines because of the dangers to children?

§ Sir K. Joseph
I have no legislation in mind on the subject, but this is one of the topics which will be considered in the inter-departmental study.

§ Mr. J. H. Osborn
I welcome my right hon. Friend's general statement of the review of smoking in public places. Will he particularly extend this to public transport? Can he make it the custom to have compartments set aside where smoking is permitted, rather than nonsmoking?

§ Sir K. Joseph
It is this sort of possibility which I shall be discussing with the transport authorities.

§ Mrs. Shirley Williams
We welcome the Secretary of State's statement, but we would also like to pay credit to his hon. Friend the Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro) for his adamant decision that this matter should be debated in Parliament, which seems a very proper thing to bring about.
I have three questions. First, will the right hon. Gentleman try to ensure that when the nicotine and tar content of cigarettes becomes known as a result of the standing committee which he is setting up it will be possible to put the nicotine and tar content on the cigarette packets themselves, thereby encouraging safer smoking? Second, he said nothing about advertising on hoardings and in other ways. I wonder whether he could say something about that. Third, does he intend, in reaching an agreement about smoking in public places, to try so far as possible to ensure that the major halls, such as cinemas and theatres, should not now be normally available to smokers, since this gives offence to non-smokers, who, in view of the danger, should perhaps be allowed to predominate?

§ Sir K. Joseph
In the light of the voluntary agreement which the industry has reached with the Government and which can be put into effect very quickly, the Government do not think that there is a case for legislation. I hope very much that, in the light of what I have said, my hon. Friend will see fit to withdraw his Bill. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] If hon. Members wish to suggest that he should continue with this Bill, which of course he is entirely free to do, then they must recognise that they are delaying the arrival of the warning packages and advertisements in the public eye—

Hon. Members
Why?

§ Sir K. Joseph
Because, as I have explained, the industry cannot be expected to embark upon a massive reprinting operation to fulfil its voluntary agreement when legislation may impose different requirements upon it.

§ Sir K. Joseph
I am dealing with these questions—

§ Mrs. Williams
Could I just pursue this? Surely we are entitled to ask, why not? It suggests that the right hon. Gentleman has reached some agreement with the industry of a kind which he has not revealed to the House.

§ Sir K. Joseph
No, it is a very big operation, with implications for the relative markets of the individual companies, to embark first upon one set of reprinting in conformity with one agreement, only in a few months to have to shift their ground altogether. I do not think that they can be expected voluntarily to submit to the first in the light of the second.
The right hon. Lady asked about printing the tar and nicotine contents on the packet. The Government's intention is, after suitably scientific definition of the dangerous ingredients, to arrange for a "league table" to be published so that the public can assess the tar and nicotine content of one particular brand against that of another. I told the House that advertising on hoardings and posters is covered by the agreement, and there will be a reference to the warning notice. Finally, I shall be discussing with the entertainment interests the possibility of a larger allocation of space for what I hope are now the majority—the nonsmokers.

§ Sir H. Legge-Bourke
Before my right hon. Friend agrees to the type of propaganda which should go out, would he have careful consultations with the dental profession, not least because many people who give up smoking then take up sweets, which are very damaging to their health?

§ Sir K. Joseph
Yes, Sir, although I am a sweet-eater myself. We have to recognise that the graduation may be from cigarette addiction to pipe and perhaps cigar smoking, and even sweets—but they do not deal death.

§ Mr. Pardoe
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, having regard to human fallibility, the measures announced this afternoon, however welcome, will certainly fail to reduce the incidence of smoking? Does he not think that it will be much better to reduce death by going for the safer smoke? Therefore, how much money will he make available for further research into producing a safer smoke? Will he consider the official 1196 publication of a league table, showing the nicotine and tar content of all the brands, so as to encourage those manufacturers who have had some success in reducing the tar content?

§ Sir K. Joseph
I just said that a league table is the Government's intention. The industry, I am assured, is spending all the money which can practicably be spent on searching for a safer cigarette. If there were evidence that more money could usefully be spent, I would certainly consider it, but it is greatly in the interests of the industry, of course, to arrive at a safer smoke.

§ Sir B. Rhys Williams
Is my right hon. Friend convinced that the amount of research done into the relative hazard of smoking cigarettes, cigars and pipe tobacco is really conclusive and final? If not, will he make funds available so that this research can be completed?

§ Sir K. Joseph
I am naturally chary of pontificating about research, but I am told that American, Canadian and British research validates the conclusion which I gave, and that less wide-ranging research in Germany and Switzerland goes in the other direction.

§ Mr. Bagier
While welcoming the statement of the Secretary of State and also paying tribute to the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro), I trust that the Secretary of State will also mention the long campaign which my hon. Friend the Member for Willesden, West (Mr. Pavitt) also pursued prior to this. I welcome what the right hon. Gentleman said about encouraging the young. Will he consider approaching toy manufacturers and importers to ask them to restrict the bringing in of toys which produce simulated cigarettes? Is he aware that, alongside a primary school, children can buy small things which look like cigarettes, filled with powdered chalk, which give the appearance of smoking? This should not be encouraged.

§ Sir K. Joseph
The hon. Member for Willesden, West had perhaps a less sympathetic Government to deal with. I think that there is a limit to the amount of avuncular help which any Government should go in for. We must watch that we do not go too far. But I will consider the hon. Member's point.

§ Mr. Adley
While recognising the desirable motives of those who are pressing for this legislation, may I ask my right hon. Friend to agree that there is a danger that young people who are persuaded not to smoke might spend the money so saved in less desirable ways—[HON. MEMBERS: "Rubbish."]—particularly remembering that the tobacco industry is a legitimate employer of labour and a considerable provider of taxation revenue?

§ Sir K. Joseph
One cannot speculate on how the money so saved would be spent. I very much hope that the industry will find a safer form of cigarette, because I accept that there is widespread pleasure derived from smoking in moderation and that there is much employment involved.

§ Mr. Russell Kerr
While welcoming the Minister's general approach to this matter, may I counsel him against the publication of any form of league table? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Is he aware that the commercial interests are so big in this instance that it would be open to possible bribery and similar undesirable practices?

§ Sir K. Joseph
I reject that allegation altogether. The industry has jumped eagerly at the idea of a committee based impartially upon its scientists and Government scientists to assess the scrupulous objectivity of any publication of the ingredients.

§ Mr. Kenneth Lewis
Is my right hon. Friend aware that another point of view is held by some of us and by many people outside—that there is a danger of the Government taking too grandmotherly an approach to this and other matters? If people do not already know that there are dangers inherent in smoking, they will never know. Many people believe there is a limit to which the Government should go in these matters, and I believe that my right hon. Friend has reached that limit this afternoon.
I urge him not to make representations to insurance companies, which have the right to assess for themselves what the risks are before they insure people. I urge him to stop at the point he has reached this afternoon; to go for the printing of slogans on cigarette packets but not to interfere in any other way.

§ Sir K. Joseph
The view which my hon. Friend has expressed is very respectable. The Government are limiting themselves largely to making sure that people understand what they are doing when they smoke cigarettes. The toll in terms of misery, illness and death is too large for the Government to ignore.

Hon. Members
Hear, hear.

§ Mr. Pavitt
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the obduracy of the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro) is matched by mine? My Bill will come up for its Second Reading on 7th May. It is equally comprehensive and I certainly will not withdraw it. Did he discuss the whole question of gift coupons and the way in which £51 million is spent on persuading people to smoke while only £100,000, plus the extra which is now being given, is spent on dissuading them?
Is he aware that the problem of printing does not hold water because since 1964 the manufacturers have had to print warnings on all cigarette packets exported to the United States to comply with the law of America? Does he appreciate, therefore, that this idea of time being lost does not arise?

§ Sir K. Joseph
The answer to the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question about coupons is "No."

§ Mr. Pavitt
What about the remainder of my question?

Hon. Members
Answer.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. We must move on to the next business.