HC Deb 24 June 1971 vol 819 cc1564-7
2. Mr. Fowler

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will make a further statement on a pay increase for probation officers.

28. Mrs. Renée Short

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will now make a further statement on pay increases for probation officers.

Mr. Maudling

Following the reconstitution of the staff side of the Joint Negotiating Committee for the Probation Service, a further meeting of the Committee took place on 18th June. The staff side representatives did not then accept the employers' offer, which I described in my reply to a Question on 20th May by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, South (Mr. Fowler), but negotiations are continuing.—[Vol. 817, c. 1496.]

Mr. Fowler

Would my right hon. Friend not agree that a strong probation service is absolutely essential if we are to reduce the almost overwhelming pressure on the prisons? Would it not be possible to offer an interim pay award accompanied by the setting up of an inquiry to look into the whole state of the probation service?

Mr. Maudling

In a sense this is negotiation of an interim award since it comes in the middle of an exceptional 21-month period. I thought that the offer made by the employers' side was designed to be consistent with the Government's declared and retained intention to strengthen the probation service.

Mrs. Renée Short

If the right hon. Gentleman accepts that as an alternative to prison sentences—which many people ought not to have—three ought to be a considerably expanded and strengthened probation service, will this system not collapse completely unless something can be done to keep probation officers within the probation service? Is he not aware that many probation officers are moving over to local government services, in which they can get very much better pay?

Mr. Maudling

There is a Question later on the Order Paper which deals with the number of people leaving the probation service, but the pay offer that was made was designed very much with that point in view.

Mr. Hooson

Is not the service so important that its remuneration should be comparable with what is being paid in local government social services? Is this not the crux of the matter, and in these circumstances should this not be treated as a special problem?

Mr. Maudling

I agree with that. We have very much in mind comparability with local government social service scales. Although the probation service is on a fixed scale, local authorities have a recommended one; many authorities pay higher than the recommended scale, and this creates a practical problem.

Mr. Raphael Tuck

Does the Home Secretary not realise that the offer made is not nearly competitive enough to encourage recruitment? Would he not look at this matter seriously in view of possible deterioration in the service since an increase in numbers is highly desirable?

Mr. Maudling

Although the hon. Member asserts that, I do not accept his judgment. I think that the offer made, which was not only 8½ per cent. but also included a £70 allowance, which has been ignored in public comment, was designed to meet the requirements of the service and, I believe, would have done so.

Mr. Elystan Morgan

Is it not likely that the new negotiating team will meet the same fate as the old one if it agrees to an award anywhere near 8½ per cent.? Has not the point been reached when it is necessary for the Home Secretary himself to take charge of the situation and bring about a radical reappraisal in the pay scales for this most important public service?

Mr. Maudling

I would not like to comment while negotiations are continuing, though I would like to point out that the 8½ per cent. when taken with the £70 allowance amounts in total to a figure more like 13 per cent.

6. Mr. Hardy

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many probation officers are employed per 10,000 population in England and Wales; and how many are employed per 10,000 in the Rother Valley constituency.

Mr. Maudling

At 31st May, 1971, 0.58 and 0.4 main grade officers respectively.

Mr. Hardy

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that probation officers in my constituency and the surrounding area are carrying extremely heavy case loads at present? What steps is he taking to secure further appointments so that the position may be improved greatly?

Mr. Maudling

I understand that at present there are three vacancies in the team of probation officers serving the area in question. It is expected that these will have been filled by mid-September. I hope very much that that will happen.

Mr. Bob Brown

Will the right hon. Gentleman concede that the cost of keeping a man in prison compared with that of keeping him out of prison by means of the probation service makes it economic lunacy to allow the situation which has developed in the probation service to continue?

Mr. Maudling

I do not agree, and the figures do not bear out what the hon. Gentleman says.

14. Mr. Judd

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what are the latest trends in recruiting to, and resignations from, the probation service; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Maudling

According to returns from probation authorities, 134 established officers joined and 70 left the service in the first five months of this year. The corresponding figures for the same period last year were 111 and 73.

Mr. Judd

I thank the Home Secretary for that reply. Does he agree that, taking into account the conditions of service in this profession, the fact that there has not been a mass exodus is a tremendous tribute to the dedication of probation officers throughout the country? At a time when the Government, to their credit, emphasise the rehabilitation of offenders, is there not something rather sordid about exploiting the good will of social workers?

Mr. Maudling

I cannot accept the wording of the latter part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question. I recognise the great devotion of all members of the service to their duties. It is right to point out that, despite what has been said, recruiting this year has been better than last year and that wastage this year has been slightly less than last year.

Mr. Russell Kerr

Is the Home Secretary aware that there is still a desperate shortage of probation officers throughout the country and that his own relatively progressive ideas in this sphere are likely to be frustrated unless he takes positive action to put the situation right?

Mr. Maudling

One must not exaggerate. The total output of students for training this year will be about 350 compared with only 270 last year.

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