§ 5.4 p.m.
§ The Under-Secretary of State for Home Affairs and Agriculture, Scottish Office (Mr. Alick Buchanan-Smith)I beg to move Amendment No. 10, in page 3, line 3, leave out subsection (9).
I am sure that the fact that this Amendment is on the Order Paper gives enormous pleasure to the right hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) because, in Committee, he moved an Amendment similar to Amendment No. 21 on the Order Paper, and I think that it might be for the convenience of the House if that Amendment to delete subsection (7) of Clause 3 were considered with the one that I have moved.
In Committee the right hon. Gentleman said that Clause 2(9) and Clause 3(7) were unnecessary. We spent some time searching for something on which we could agree with the right hon. Gentleman, and I am glad that on this matter we have been able to reach agreement with him. In fact, we have gone further than the right hon. Gentleman proposed. He sought to amend only Clause 3. We are seeking to amend that Clause and this one. It gives me great pleasure to carry out the undertaking that I gave in Committee, and I hope that the House will accept the Amendment.
§ Mr. William Ross (Kilmarnock)I am almost breathless over what has happened. I am sure that there must have been five or six Cabinet meetings before this change was agreed to. If the hon. Gentleman had been putting our case, many more meetings would have been necessary.
Since my translation from that side of the House to this, I have returned to my honorary presidency of the society for the improvement of Statutes and, indeed, for the protection of the traditions of Scotland.
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The Amendment seeks to delete the subsection which says:
This section does not apply to Scotland.
As if it ever could The title of the Clause is
Disposal of property in England …
I do not think that that has much relevance to Scotland. What is more, one sees in subsection (1) a reference to the Act of 1964—I have here a copy of that celebrated Act—and it says that it does not apply to Scotland. How many times must we put up with this kind of thing?
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I know that draftsmen are hidebound by tradition and take the view that because something has been done in a certain way it must continue to be done in that way, and not a word must be altered. This provision might have escaped our eye, and we might not have been quite so offended, if the words in the two subsections were similar. Subsection (9) says:
This section does not apply to Scotland",
but Clause 3 (7) says:
This section applies to Scotland only.
In that part of the Bill dealing with Scotland, the relevant subsection says:
This section applies to Scotland only.
If the Government wanted to be consistent, they should have said
This section does not apply to England.
§ The Clause refers to licensing justices and many other things which bear no relation to Scottish law. It is about time that the breakthrough was made. I congratulate the Government on this momentous decision. It must have been as important and difficult to achieve this Amendment as it was for the Under-Secretary to achieve anything in the North-East of Britain where these negotiations have taken place.
§ But we should not look a gift horse in the mouth and I will ask my hon. Friends to accept the Amendments in the spirit in which they are offered. I wish that we could have had something more important, but we have not lost hope. There are more important Amendments to come. I am sure that, now that he has been persuaded to look kindly on this suggestion, the hon. Gentleman will be able to do good later on.
§ Mr. Buchanan-SmithBy the length of time he took and the grudging way in 1632 which he accepted the Amendment, the right hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) almost persuaded me to withdraw it. The words in the Bill do no harm. There will probably be other occasions—I can remember a similar one in the past—when I will be chided for not making things absolutely clear in Bills. The right hon. Gentleman now has three rôles in his honorary presidency of the society he mentioned—first to pick out unnecessary words, second to scarify me and, third, to filibuster, even when generosity is offered him.
§ Notice taken that 40 Members were not present;
§ House counted, and, 40 Members being present—
§ Amendment agreed to.