§ Q8. Mr. Dalyellasked the Prime Minister if he is satisfied with the coordination between the Department of Education and Science, the Ministry of Defence and the Department of Trade and Industry on the salaries and working conditions of Government scientists.
§ The Prime MinisterYes, Sir, where co-ordination is necessary: but the salaries and conditions of service for Government scientific grades are handled centrally by the Civil Service Department.
§ Mr. DalyellIs a zero pay award fair?
§ The Prime MinisterThe position was that the last Government decided—I do not in any way quarrel with this—that the scientific grades should be dealt with on the same basis of pay research as their non-scientific colleagues. The result was that certain grades were found to have salaries higher than comparable outside scientists. On the other hand, junior appointments were found to be below outside pay. The pay research conclusions were that the junior members should receive pay increases, but this was not justified for those grades which, so research showed, were receiving higher salaries than those outside. If one is to work on the basis of pay research and comparable remuneration, it does not seem justifiable—when the pay is already above those working outside—that those concerned should still have increases in salary.
§ Sir H. Legge-BourkeAlthough I accept the force of my right hon. Friend's argument, may I ask him also to recollect that in the Fulton recommendations there was an intention to try to correlate the scientific Civil Service with other branches of the Civil Service? Does he realise that there is considerable fear among Government scientists that this proposal is being undermined? Although it is appreciated that it is difficult to intervene while arbitration is taking place, will he look at this matter again after the arbitration is over?
§ The Prime MinisterYes, Sir. I have looked carefully at this matter because it is of great importance. Far from undermining the position of the scientists and non-scientists in the Civil Service, what happened was that the previous Government decided that these salaries should be dealt with by pay research on the same fundamental basis as those of non-scientists in the Civil Service. What I understand has caused distress to the scientists is that when the pay research came out with its findings, the conclusion was that their salaries were to some extent above those paid in science outside the Civil Service. Therefore it was not possible to come to the conclusion that their salaries should be increased. Since, as my hon. Friend said, this matter is now before arbitration, we had better leave it there.
§ Mr. Michael CocksWill the Prime Minister undertake to make available the full pay research information to the people whose salaries are involved?
§ The Prime MinisterI shall have to look into that question to see whether it is customary to make the information public. All the information is made available to the negotiators on both sides; they have full access to it, and it is a complicated matter. Their conclusions are drawn from facts provided by the pay research. I will inquire to see whether it has ever been made public.