§ 8. Mr. Ashleyasked the Secretary of State for Employment if he will amend the Code of Industrial Relations Practice to include the suggestion that employers should actively encourage workers to join trade unions.
§ Mr. R. CarrI will give careful consideration to this and all other comments made on the consultative document.
§ Mr. AshleyIs the right hon. Genteman aware that industrial strife is often attributed to trade unions, but is due to the attitude of arrogant and ignorant employers, and that a survey shows that more than 40 per cent. of British employers are hostile to the trade unions? What proposals has he for changing the attitude of management, because that could do more than any repressive legislation to create good industrial relations?
§ Mr. CarrI do not necessarily accept the hon. Gentleman's adjectives, but I agree, and I have made it clear, for example, in the Industrial Relations Bill and the consultative document, that the primary responsibility for good industrial relations rests on management. I have publicly, not only in the House but outside, expressed the belief that trade unionism ought to be encouraged. I think that that is right. I assure the hon. Gentleman that I will take account of what he said.
§ Mr. Adam ButlerWould not my right hon. Friend agree that paragraph 6(c) on the first page of the consultative document says—[HON MEMBERS: "Reading."] I am reading from the document; it says—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The hon. Member may not quote a document during Question time.
§ Mr. ButlerI apologise. In this paragraph there is a statement to the effect that it is one of the responsibilities of management to encourage employees to join trade unions. Is not that the straight answer to the hon. Gentleman's question?
§ Mr. CarrThat is certainly so. The Code of Practice has to take account of all forms of employment, including places where trade unions are not as yet recognised. The Bill will be a strong encouragement to trade union membership.
§ Mrs. CastleIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that it needed a major debate on the Industrial Relations Bill in Committee to get words into the Bill to prevent it from actively discouraging workers from joining trade unions? [Interruption] Hon. Members opposite have not taken part in these debates and do not know. It was the hon. Member for Basingstoke (Mr. David Mitchell) and others who had to point out to the right hon. Gentleman that as it then stood the Bill actively discouraged workers from joining a union. That is why the Government had to move an Amendment. Then we awaited the Code of Industrial Practice—[Interruption.] I am sorry that hon. Members opposite do not like the facts—[HON. MEMBERS: "Question."] I have asked the right hon. Gentleman whether it is not a fact —[Interruption.] Mr. Speaker knows that I am in order.
§ Mr. SpeakerI know that the right hon. Lady is in order. But I was wondering whether she was anticipating later discussions.
§ Mrs. CastleI am answering— [Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerIn that case the right hon. Lady is not in order if she is answering.
§ Mrs. CastleI am dealing with the point—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—and asking the Secretary of State whether it is not a fact that the Code of Industrial Practice in Section 6 carefully qualifies a management's duty to encourage trade unionism, limiting it to those cases where trade unions are already recognised? Is it not a fact that the gap in the code has already been commented on by the unions?
§ Mr. CarrI do not accept the right hon. Lady's interpretation over what happened to the Bill in Committee. What I do recall is that when an Amendment— which I accepted—was moved, to introduce a primary responsibility upon management into the Bill, it was opposed by 763 the first speaker from the benches opposite. As to the right hon. Lady's second point, it is true, as I have said, that since this code must deal with all forms of employment, including employment where there is no union, I must limit the substance of the code as I have done. In the foreword I make it clear that the principle of the code is based on employees being members of a trade union.
§ 13. Mr. Spenceasked the Secretary of State for Employment how many requests he has had from trade unions for copies of the Code of Industrial Relations Practice.
§ Mr. R. CarrTrade unions have so far asked for and received some 11,000 copies of the draft code through the headquarters and regional offices of my Department.
§ Mr. SpenceI thank my right hon. Friend for that figure. Does not he agree that it demonstrates that, no matter what the initial reaction of the T.U.C. may have been to the publication of the code, many trade unions have found it very valuable, and of interest to them?
§ Mr. CarrI am certainly encouraged that we have had 11,000 requests for copies. I hope that the demand will continue. I repeat my hope that all trade unions will consult about this document.
§ Mr. OrmeCan the right hon. Gentleman tell us what the reaction has been from any recipients of the 11,000 copies? What representations have been made by any trade union affiliated to the T.U.C?