§ 14. Mr. Denzil Daviesasked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will publish an account of the discussions concerning regional policies which his officials have now had in Brussels with representatives of the European Economic Community.
§ Mr. Peter ThomasNo, Sir. On 28th June, in answer to the hon. Member for Abertillery (Mr. Jeffrey Thomas), I outlined the points covered in the discussions, but the details of such discussions must remain confidential.—[Vol. 820, c. 3–5.]
§ Mr. DaviesThe right hon. and learned Gentleman's answer is entirely predictable, because this is one of the topics which the Government are desperately anxious to sweep under the carpet. As past experience in Wales and in the United Kingdom has been that capital investment always congregates in the most prosperous areas and that labour is forced to follow, can the Secretary of State say how entry into the European Economic Community will retard rather than accelerate that trend?
§ Mr. Peter ThomasThe hon. Gentleman knows that in the European Economic Community capital investment has certainly not been concentrated in the populated areas. The nationalised industries of Italy, for instance, are under statutory obligation to allocate 40 per cent. of their new investment to development areas. The hon. Gentleman, if he studies the different regional policies in the European Economic Community, will appreciate that Britain has quite an important part to play in formulating any common regional policy at which the European Economic Community may in future arrive.
§ Mr. GowerIs it not a fact that unless Britain has a much larger domestic market we shall not have the global resources to divert to the implementation of this regional policy?
§ Mr. Peter ThomasI agree with my hon. Friend.
§ Mr. Alan WilliamsIs not the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the people of Wales are intensely dissatisfied not only because there has not been a separate Welsh White Paper on the Common Market but because not even a separate paragraph or a separate sentence dealing with Wales appears in the White Paper? Does he realise that they will be even more perturbed to hear that he does not intend even to take part in the four-day debate in order to explain his assessment of the impact on Wales, and undergo examination of his assessment?
§ Mr. Peter ThomasWe followed the example set by our predecessors. Our predecessor Government, of which I believe the hon. Gentleman was a member, came to the conclusion that this matter must be viewed on a United Kingdom basis, and that it would be wrong to try to assess the effect on individual regions. On a United Kingdom basis, we have come to the same conclusion that our predecessors came to.
§ Mr. George ThomasDoes not the Secretary of State agree that Wales has a right to know at this stage the details of how her economy will be affected? Wales, we accept, was dealt with as part of the United Kingdom, but the right hon. and learned Gentleman must now have at his disposal what the previous Administration could not have at their disposal, the detail of how the agreement reached by his right hon. and learned Friend at Brussels will affect the differing industries in the Principality.
§ Mr. Peter ThomasIt is certainly possible to give an assessment of the effect on differing industries. For instance, Mr. Ezra, of the National Coal Board, has said that the coal industry will benefit. [Interruption.] Lord Melchett, of the Steel Board, has said that the steel industry will benefit. The National Farmers' Union is in agreement with the arrangements that have been made for hill farming, and agrees that we shall be able to give continuing assistance to maintain the incomes of hill farmers. All those can be assessed, but they are individual things, and it would be wrong to try to assess what may be the growth of industry generally in any part of the country. One 1021 has to take the United Kingdom as a whole.
§ Mr. George ThomasOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek an early opportunity of raising the matter on the Adjournment.
§ 15. Mr. Elystan Morganasked the Secretary of State for Wales what plans he has to seek to pay an official visit to the European Economic Community Commission in the near future.
§ Mr. Peter ThomasI have no immediate plans to visit Brussels, but will be ready to do so should it appear to be necessary.
§ Mr. MorganOn the issue of Wales and the Common Market, does not the Secretary of State accept that he has married the maximum confidence with the minimum knowledge? Would he accept that the people of Wales would have greater confidence in his competence and his honesty if he were prepared to make a detailed and comprehensive study of these matters so vital to the life of Wales? The Welsh people will not be impressed that he is willing to subordinate the interests of Welsh people in this matter to saving the face of the Government.
§ Mr. Peter ThomasThe Welsh Council agreed at its last meeting to investigate the terms and to report. We maintain, as did our predecessors, that Wales will share fully in the benefits that will accrue to the United Kingdom from membership of the Community. The increased growth which will be stimulated in the United Kingdom as a result of entry, allied with an effective regional policy, will be of special benefit to Wales.
§ 23. Mr. Denzil Daviesasked the Secretary of State for Wales whether, in view of the possibility of the United Kingdom becoming a member of the European Economic Community, and the current formulation within the Community of a policy on investment incentives, he will ask the Welsh Council to undertake a study of the different forms of investment incentives available within the existing Community countries and the effect of their implementation upon Wales.
§ Mr. Peter ThomasAt its last meeting the Welsh Council decided to consider the White Paper "The United Kingdom and the European Communities"—Cmnd. 4715—and the possible implications for Wales of the United Kingdom becoming a member of the Community. The Council hopes to complete this study by October. It is for the Council to decide on the scope of its study.
§ Mr. DaviesI thank the right hon. and learned Gentleman for that reply. I remind him that this report should be available for consideration over the summer. It is rather late to produce it in October just before the vote is taken in Parliament. As the Prime Minister indicated in the House a few weeks ago that if the E.E.C. Commission recommended a system of investment grants as opposed to investment allowances he would be prepared possibly to revert to that system, would the right hon. and learned Gentleman tell us whether we can conclude that the Government are at last persuaded that grants are superior to investment allowances?
§ Mr. Peter ThomasCertainly not. The Government are not persuaded of that at all. As the hon. Gentleman knows, each member of the Community pursues its own regional policy. The members of the Six have not yet reached any harmonisation of their policies, but they hope to do so. If after discussion, in which Britain will play its part, it is decided that there should be a change, certainly Britain would accept the change.
§ Mr. Alec JonesWill the Secretary of State give an undertaking that the report of the study which is being undertaken by the Welsh Council into Wales and the E.E.C. will be made public and available to Members of the House?
§ Mr. Peter ThomasIt is for the Council to decide how it wants to handle the outcome of its study. It may decide to report its views to me with a request that its report should be published. I will consider whatever request is put to me.
§ 28. Mr. Probertasked the Secretary of State for Wales what effect will Great Britain's entry into the European Economic Community have upon the employment of civil servants in the Welsh Office.
§ Mr. Peter ThomasIt is too soon to give any precise estimate.
§ Mr. ProbertWe have just heard about the creation of jobs. Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that an authoritative estimate has stated that between 4,000 and 5,000 extra jobs for British civil servants will be created if we enter the European Economic Community, and that these jobs will be created not in Wales or Scotland or in the North-East or the South-East but in Brussels, which will be highly welcome to the Belgian people but wholly unwelcome to the people in Wales? How does this accord with the Tory policy to reduce civil servants?
§ Mr. Peter ThomasI remind the hon. Gentleman of what the Parliamentary Secretary to the Civil Service Department said in the House on 14th July, 1971.
§ Mr. George ThomasMay we therefore take it that once again the right hon. and learned Gentleman's answer is that he does not know, as with his answers to other Questions?
§ Mr. Peter ThomasMy answer is that if Parliament decides that we should enter the European Economic Community there will be some switching of staff to new tasks but that does not mean that an increase in the overall number of civil servants is inevitable. We are on the look out for economies in staff in all areas of the Civil Service.