HC Deb 14 July 1971 vol 821 cc669-72

Amendments made :

No. 15, in page 5, line 1, leave out 'master' and insert 'manager'.

No. 16, in line 8, leave out 'master' and insert 'manager'.—[Mr. Ridley.]

Mr. Ridley

I beg to move Amendment No. 17, in page 5, line 10, after second 'or', insert 'where connected with safety, health or welfare'. This Amendment, too, is designed to meet the views of the Opposition who considered that it was not entirely clear whether the powers in the Bill were concerned only with safety, health and welfare or with discipline of an industrial nature. We have found it possible to clarify the Bill, although the intention was always that which the Opposition understood and shared with the Government. Both this Amendment and Amendment No. 34 to the Schedule are intended to clarify what was always our intention, namely, that the provisions of the Bill should relate only to matters dealing with safety, health and welfare. I hope that these Amendments will meet with the approval of the Opposition and that I need not argue the case further.

Mr. John Prescott (Kingston upon Hull, East)

We welcome the Amendment, as we pressed for this point in Committee. We wish to make it absolutely clear that where responsibility is to be placed upon a certain person, now to be known as the installation manager, that responsibility and authority vested in him shall be concerned solely with the safety of the installation itself. The Amendment now makes that clear.

However, it is fair to point out, even at this late stage, that there are certain circumstances which must be taken into consideration with the Amendment. We feel that the Amendment now makes it clear that where the Clause refers to maintenance of order and discipline, it refers particularly to those matters which threaten the safety, health or welfare of people on board installations. However, it cannot be entirely divorced from other parts of the Clause—for example, subsection (3). The Under-Secretary will be aware of our very strong objection to the Clause, which makes it a statutory offence to disobey a lawful command with a fine of up to £50. This is ominous and very much reminiscent of the Captain Bligh kind of situation.

The Amendment now makes it clear that the responsibility vested in the manager of the installation is solely for the maintenance of order and discipline in matters connected with safety, health or welfare. The Clause will now read : Except as otherwise provided by this Act, the master of an installation shall have in relation to it general responsibility for matters affecting safety, health or welfare or where connected with safety, health or welfare the maintenance of order and discipline, and for the discharge of that responsibility shall exercise authority over all persons in or about the installation". It now makes it clear that the maintenance of order and discipline is related solely to matters concerned with the safety, health and welfare of those on board the installation. We therefore welcome the Amendment.

Amendment No. 34 amends the Schedule, and again makes it clear that we are concerned in this legislation about the safety of these installations.

12 midnight

It appears that there is a conflict in the Clause. Having amended it to make it clear that we are concerned solely with safety matters, subsection (3) provides that anyone who disobeys a lawful command commits an offence. It does not refer to the order being given in the interests of safety and welfare. It merely says that if he disobeys a lawful command he will commit a statutory offence and face the penalty of a fine of up to £50.

A lawful command is not defined. It refers simply to an order given by the installation manager. It does not necessarily mean that the order has to be related to the safety, health and welfare of the installation. This is reminiscent of the merchant shipping legislation, a large part of which was incorporated in the Bill when it was drafted. We feel that there is a conflict between placing responsibility on the manager to look after safety, health and welfare matters, and giving him the authority to see that his orders are obeyed, with the possibility of a legal sanction if they are not.

I suggest that the Bill goes further than the Merchant Shipping Acts, because Section 29 of the 1930 Act says that anyone disobeying certain commands appertaining to the operation of the ship or its equipment shall face a possible fine of £50. The 1930 Act is very much resented by seamen, and they are fighting to get that provision removed.

On 24th July I asked the Minister for Trade if he will review within a three-year period the penal clauses contained in the Shipping Act, 1970",

to which the right hon. Gentleman replied : Yes, We shall review the provision. Should we then feel that these provisions remain necessary to preserve safety at sea we should not propose any change in them."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th July, 1970; Vol. 804, c. 298.]

Here we are concerned solely with a lawful command, and after 10 years at sea I am only too well aware of what a lawful command can mean. In many instances it can have nothing to do with the safety of installations. There is a contradiction here. We are glad that the hon. Gentleman has brought in the Amendment to make it clear that this refers to safety and welfare, but in leaving in the other provision about being a lawful command he is creating a contradiction. We feel that he should have gone further and corrected that, as we asked in Committee, and made it clear that it must be the disobeying of a lawful command given in the interests of the safety of the vessel.

The industry does not want the Draconian powers of the Clause. People in the industry do not want them. A number of people who have had seafaring experience on oil installations say that it is not necessary, in the conditions envisaged by the Bill, to have these penal sanctions. The Government have not proved their case. They have partly accepted our argument. I know that it is late in the day to expect changes in the Bill, but this provision will be detrimental to good industrial relations on these installations where co-operation is so necessary.

Mr. Ridley

With leave of the House, I would not wish to enter into an argument about merchant shipping matters, but I must point out that the hon. Member's interpretation of subsection (3) is wrong. The words "that authority" refer to subsection (2), which is limited to matters of safety, health and welfare. So subsection (3) is similarly limited, and does not take the matters wider than the issues on which we are all agreed—that the installation manager has every right to exercise authority and, therefore. ultimately, discipline.

There is no difference of intention between us, but the hon. Members interpretation is wrong : the subsection does not smack of Captain Bligh. It is limited to the purpose on which both sides are agreed.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendments made : No. 18, in page 5, line 17, leave out 'master' and insert 'manager'.

No. 19, in line 19 leave out 'master and insert 'manager'.

No. 20, in line 21, leave out 'master' and insert 'manager'.

No. 21, in line 28, leave out 'master and insert 'installation manager'.

No. 22, in line 29, leave out 'a master and insert 'an installation manager '

No. 23, in line 38, leave out 'master and insert 'installation manager'.

No. 24, in line 43, leave out 'master and insert 'installation manager'.

No. 25, in line 46, leave out 'master and insert 'installation manager'.

No. 26, page 6, line 4, leave out 'master' and insert 'installation manager'.

No. 27, in line 6, leave out 'master' and insert 'installation manager'.

No. 28, in line 8, leave out 'master and insert 'installation manager'.

No. 29, in line 22, leave out 'master and insert 'manager'.—[Mr. Ridley.]

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