HC Deb 28 January 1971 vol 810 cc1039-46

Amendments made: No. 476, in page 14, line 15, leave out from beginning to 'or' in line 17 and insert: (b) specifying a person to whom, in accordance with the procedure available to the employee where he has a grievance relating to his employment, the employee can apply for the purpose of invoking that procedure, and the manner in which any such aplication should be made, and (c) either explaining the subsequent steps in that procedure. No. 477, in page 14, line 19, leave out 'that procedure' and insert 'those steps'.—[The Solicitor-General.]

Question put, That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill:—

The Committee proceeded to a Division

Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered)

On a point of order, Sir Robert. I am sorry to pursue this matter, and if I had wanted to be awkward I would have persisted in standing, and defying your Ruling. This is a reasonable point of order, and it is this.

You will recall that I questioned the propriety of some hon. Members who assaulted a servant of the House. I came to the Table and took advice, and the advice was that I could not raise the matter tomorrow with Mr. Speaker. What I am now asking, Sir Robert, is whether you will, in your capacity in the Chair, tonight, institute an investigation into the assault on a servant of the House.

The Chairman

If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I must interrupt him for a moment. The Question is, That Clause 18, as amended, stand part of the Bill. Those in favour say "Aye": those against say "No". Tellers for the Ayes, Mr. Hawkins and Mr. Rossi: tellers for the Noes, Mr. Golding and Mr. Hamling.

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will allow me to answer his point of order now—I think that I am properly seized of it. There have been times in the past when servants of the House have been not actually injured, but hurt or maltreated by hon. Members pushing their way into the Lobbies. On every occasion, action has not been taken by the Chair unless the person concerned has complained to the Chair. The servants of the House are instructed that if there is anything of that nature to complain about it is their duty to complain. In this case, no complaint whatsoever has been made to me by the allegedly offended servant of the House. That being so, I think that the hon. Gentleman would wish to let the matter rest.

Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered)

Further to that point of order. It is almost a cardinal principle that a servant of the House cannot complain against an hon. Member. I understand that there was not only an assault at that end of the Chamber but at the other end as well. If we are to rely on the servants of this House, who are employees of this House, making complaints against Members of this House it would be an intolerable situation. I am not asking you to condemn anyone, but to use your authority to investigate the incidents to which I have referred, in fairness to those who serve us so well.

The Chairman

I do not think I can give the hon. Gentleman the satisfaction which he is seeking. The rules and the traditions of the House in these matters are very clear. Obviously the attendants of the House are immediately subject to the discipline of the Serjeant at Arms. If they have any cause for complaint they would naturally, as would anyone, complain to the person under whose command they are immediately disposed. None has done so, or if they have, the Serjeant has not brought the complaint to me and I am sure that he would have done if it had been made. The hon. Gentleman would be best advised, in the interests of the Committee, to let the matter rest.

Mr. Molloy (seated and covered)

Further to that point of order. May I ask you whether you will consider this point, namely,. that the attendants involved closed the doors at your instructions and they were determined to carry out your instructions but were being prevented from doing so. I do feel that to say that they have to complain personally

Division No. 99.] AYES [2.31 a.m.
Adley, Robert Body, Richard Chapman, Sydney
Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) Boscawen, Robert Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) Bossom, Sir Clive Chichester-Clark, R.
Archer, Jeffrey (Louth) Bowden, Andrew Churchill, W. S.
Astor, John Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John Clark, William (Surrey, E.)
Atkins, Humphrey Brains, Bernard Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Awdry, Daniel Bray, Ronald Clegg, Walter
Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone) Brewis, John Cockeram, Eric
Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) Brinton, Sir Tatton Cooke, Robert
Balniel, Lord Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher Coombs, Derek
Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Cooper, A. E.
Batsford, Brian Bruce-Gardyne, J. Cordle, John
Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton Byran, Paul Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Bell, Ronald Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M) Cormack, Patrick
Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport) Buck, Antony Contain, A. P.
Benyon, W. Bullus, Sir Eric Critchley, Julian
Berry, Hn. Anthony Burden, F. A. Crouch, David
Biffen, John Butler, Adam (Bosworth) Crowder, F. P.
Biggs-Davison, John Carlisle, Mark Curran, Charles
Blaker, Pater Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)
Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) Channon, Paul d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

is placing an additional burden upon them——

The Chairman

Lock the doors!

Mr. Molloy (seated and covered)

You have just demonstrated the validity of my argument. It was you, Mr. Chairman who shouted, "Lock the doors", and it was hon. Members opposite who would not let the servants of the House lock the doors. If this is not carried out there will be no proper Division. To say that they have to complain personally is an unfair burden. Despite the fact that they have not personally complained I think that you ought to consider investigating this matter.

The Chairman

No, I do not think that I should change my Ruling. It was perfectly correct to do what I have done. If there had been any cause for complaint I am sure it would have been made. This is an incident which occurs from time to time. The procedure is always the same. If the complaint is made it is made to the Serjeant, and I have seen these complaints made in the past. Members have been admonished about it. In this case there had clearly been a mistake by the Table and it was quite natural that there would be something of an avalanche of people trying to get in because they thought they had made a mistake.

The mistake was made here and I have, I hope, made a full apology to the Committee. I think we should leave the matter there. I trust in the good sense of the hon. Gentleman to do so.

The Committee having divided: Ayes 300, Noes 189.

d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack Jopling, Michael Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis
Dean, Paul Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith Quennell, Miss J. M.
Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. Kellett, Mrs. Elaine Raison, Timothy
Digby, Simon Wingfield Kershaw, Anthony Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James
Dixon, Piers Kilfedder, James Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter
Dodds-Parker, Douglas Kimball, Marcus Redmond, Robert
Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)
Drayson, G. B. King, Tom (Bridgwater) Rees, Peter (Dover)
du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward Kinsey, J. R. Rees-Davies, W. R.
Dykes, Hugh Kirk, Peter Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David
Eden, Sir John Kitson, Timothy Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) Knight, Mrs. Jill Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) Knox, David Ridsdale, Julian
Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.) Lambton, Antony Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)
Emery, Peter Lane, David Roberts, Wyn (Conway)
Eyre, Reginald Langford-Holt, Sir John Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)
Farr, John Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry Rost, Peter
Fell, Anthony Le Marchant, Spencer Royle, Anthony
Fidler, Michael Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Russell, Sir Ronald
Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead) Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone) St. John-Stevas, Norman
Fisher, Mrs. Doris(B'ham,Ladywood) Longden, Gilbert Scott, Nicholas
Fletcher-Cooke, Charles Loveridge, John Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)
Fookes, Miss Janet McAdden, Sir Stephen Shelton, William (Clapham)
Fortescue, Tim MacArthur, Ian Simeons, Charles
Foster, Sir John McCrindle, R. A. Skeet, T. H. H.
Fowler, Norman McLaren, Martin Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)
Fox, Marcus Maclean, Sir Fitzroy Soref, Harold
Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone) McMaster, Stanley Speed, Keith
Fry, Peter Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham) Spence, John
Galbraith, Hn. T. G. McNair-Wilson, Michael Sproat, Iain
Gardner, Edward McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest) Stainton, Keith
Gibson-Watt, David Maddan, Martin Stanbrook, Ivor
Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) Madel, David Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)
Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) Maginnis, John E. Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.
Glyn, Dr. Alan Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest Stokes, John
Goodhart, Philip Marten, Neil Stuttaford, Dr. Tom
Goodnew, Victor Mather, Carol Sutcliffe, John
Gorst, John Maude, Angus Tapsell, Peter
Gower, Raymond Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.) Mawby, Ray Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)
Gray, Hamish Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)
Green, Alan Meyer, Sir Anthony Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)
Grieve, Percy Mills, Peter (Torrington) Tebbit, Norman
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) Miscampbell, Norman Temple, John M.
Grylls, Michael Mitchell, Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W.) Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret
Gummer, Selwyn Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)
Gurden, Harold Moate, Roger Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)
Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley) Molyneaux, James Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)
Hall-Davis, A. G. F. Money, Ernle Tilney, John
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) Monks, Mrs. Connie Trafford, Dr. Anthony
Hannam, John (Exeter) Monro, Hector Trew, Peter
Harrison, Brian (Maldon) Montgomery, Fergus Tugendhat, Christopher
Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) More, Jasper Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.
Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh) Vaughan, Dr. Gerard
Haselhurst, Alan Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm. Vickers, Dame Joan
Hastings, Stephen Morrison, Charles (Devizes) Waddington, David
Havers, Michael Mudd, David Walder, David (Clitheroe)
Hayhoe, Barney Murton, Oscar Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)
Heseltine, Michael Nabarro, Sir Gerald Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek
Hicks, Robert Neave, Airey Wall, Patrick
Higgins, Terence L. Nicholls, Sir Harmar Walters, Dennis
Hiley, Joseph Normanton, Tom Ward, Dame Irene
Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.) Nott, John Warren, Kenneth
Hill, James (Southampton, Test) Onslow, Cranley Weatherill, Bernard
Holland, Philip Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally Wells, John (Maidstone)
Holt, Miss Mary Osborn, John White, Roger (Gravesend)
Hordern, Peter Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.) Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William
Hornby, Richard Page, Graham (Crosby) Wiggin, Jerry
Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia Page, John (Harrow, W.) Wilkinson, John
Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate) Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.) Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick
Howell, David (Guildford) Peel, John Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.) Percival, Ian Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher
Hunt, John Peyton, Rt. Hn. John Woodnutt, Mark
Hutchison, Michael Clark Pike, Miss Mervyn Worsley, Marcus
Iremonger, T. L. Pink, R. Bonner Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.
James, David Pounder, Rafton Younger, Hn. George
Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Jessel, Toby Price, David (Eastleigh) Mr. Paul Hawkins and
Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead) Proudfoot, Wilfred Mr. Hugh Rossi.
Albu, Austen Dunn, James A. Lawson, George
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Dunnett, Jack Leonard, Dick
Allen, Scholefield Eadie, Alex Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold
Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis) Edeiman, Maurice Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.)
Armstrong, Ernest Edwards, Robert (Bilston) Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Ashton, Joe Edwards, William (Merioneth) Lomas, Kenneth
Atkinson, Norman Ellis, Tom Loughlin, Charles
Begier, Gordon A. T. English, Michael Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson
Byrnes, Michael Evans, Fred McCartney, Hugh
Barnett, Joel Fernyhough, E. McGuire, Michael
Beaney, Alan Fisher, Mrs.Doris(B'ham,Ladywood) Mackenzie, Gregor
Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood Fitch, Alan (Wigan) Mackie, John
Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) Maclennan, Robert
Bidwell, Sydney Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)
Bishop, E. S. Foley, Maurice McNamara, J. Kevin
Blenkinsop, Arthur Foot, Michael Mahon, Simon (Bootle)
Boardman, H. (Leigh) Ford, Ben Marquand, David
Booth, Albert Forrester, John Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard
Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fraser, John (Norwood) Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy
Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland) Freeson, Reginald Meacher, Michael
Bradley, Tom Galpern, Sir Myer Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) Garrett, W. E. Millan, Bruce
Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) Gilbert, Dr. John Morgan, Elysian (Cardiganshire)
Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury) Ginsburg, David Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)
Buchan, Norman Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C. Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) Grant, George (Merpeth) O'Halloran, Michael
Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) Grant, John D. (Islington, E.) Orme, Stanley
Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) Oswald, Thomas
Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.) Griffiths, Will (Exchange) Paget, R. T.
Cant, R. B. Hamilton, James (Bothwell) Parker, John (Dagenham)
Carmichael, Neil Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)
Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield) Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill) Pavitt, Laurie
Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles) Hardy, Peter Pendry, Tom
Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara Harper, Joseph Perry, Ernest G.
Clark, David (Calne Valley) Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) Prescott, John
Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.) Hart, Rt. Hn. Denis Price, William (Rugby)
Cohen, Stanley Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Coleman, Donald Heffer, Eric S. Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)
Concannon, J. D. Hilton, W. S. Robertson, John (Paisley)
Conlan, Bernard Horam, John Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)
Corbet, Mrs. Freda Howell, Denis (Small Heath) Roper, John
Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.) Huckfield, Leslie Rose, Paul B.
Crawshaw, Richard Hughes, Rt. Hn, Cledwyn (Anglesey) Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)
Cronin, John Hughes, Mark (Durham) Sillars, James
Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.) Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.) Skinner, Dennis
Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven) Hunter, Adam Small, William
Dalyell, Tam Janner, Greville Spearing, Nigel
Darling, Rt. Hn. George Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas Stallard, A. W.
Davidson, Arthur Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'B'n&St.P'Cras,S.) Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John
Davies, Denzil (Llanelly) Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) Swain, Thomas
Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.)
Davies, Ifor (Gower) John, Brynmor Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)
Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.) Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) Tomney, Frank
Deakins, Eric Johnson James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) Urwin, T. W.
de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.) Varley, Eric G.
Delargy, H. J. Jones, Barry (Flint, E.) Weitzman, David
Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund Jones, Dan (Burnley) White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)
Dempsey, James Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.) Whitlock, William
Doig, Peter Kaufman, Gerald Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)
Dormand, J. D. Kelley, Richard
Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.) Kerr, Russell TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Douglas-Mann, Bruce Kinnock, Neil Mr. John Golding and
Driberg, Tom Lambie, David Mr. William Hamling.
Duffy, A. E. P. Lamond, James

Clause 18, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 19 to 21 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

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