§
Amendments made: No. 476, in page 14, line 15, leave out from beginning to 'or' in line 17 and insert:
(b) specifying a person to whom, in accordance with the procedure available to the employee where he has a grievance relating to his employment, the employee can apply for the purpose of invoking that procedure,
1040
and the manner in which any such aplication should be made, and
(c) either explaining the subsequent steps in that procedure.
No. 477, in page 14, line 19, leave out 'that procedure' and insert 'those steps'.—[The Solicitor-General.]
Question put, That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill:—
§ The Committee proceeded to a Division—
§ Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered)On a point of order, Sir Robert. I am sorry to pursue this matter, and if I had wanted to be awkward I would have persisted in standing, and defying your Ruling. This is a reasonable point of order, and it is this.
You will recall that I questioned the propriety of some hon. Members who assaulted a servant of the House. I came to the Table and took advice, and the advice was that I could not raise the matter tomorrow with Mr. Speaker. What I am now asking, Sir Robert, is whether you will, in your capacity in the Chair, tonight, institute an investigation into the assault on a servant of the House.
The ChairmanIf the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I must interrupt him for a moment. The Question is, That Clause 18, as amended, stand part of the Bill. Those in favour say "Aye": those against say "No". Tellers for the Ayes, Mr. Hawkins and Mr. Rossi: tellers for the Noes, Mr. Golding and Mr. Hamling.
Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will allow me to answer his point of order now—I think that I am properly seized of it. There have been times in the past when servants of the House have been not actually injured, but hurt or maltreated by hon. Members pushing their way into the Lobbies. On every occasion, action has not been taken by the Chair unless the person concerned has complained to the Chair. The servants of the House are instructed that if there is anything of that nature to complain about it is their duty to complain. In this case, no complaint whatsoever has been made to me by the allegedly offended servant of the House. That being so, I think that the hon. Gentleman would wish to let the matter rest.
§ Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered)Further to that point of order. It is 1041 almost a cardinal principle that a servant of the House cannot complain against an hon. Member. I understand that there was not only an assault at that end of the Chamber but at the other end as well. If we are to rely on the servants of this House, who are employees of this House, making complaints against Members of this House it would be an intolerable situation. I am not asking you to condemn anyone, but to use your authority to investigate the incidents to which I have referred, in fairness to those who serve us so well.
The ChairmanI do not think I can give the hon. Gentleman the satisfaction which he is seeking. The rules and the traditions of the House in these matters are very clear. Obviously the attendants of the House are immediately subject to the discipline of the Serjeant at Arms. If they have any cause for complaint they would naturally, as would anyone, complain to the person under whose command they are immediately disposed. None has done so, or if they have, the Serjeant has not brought the complaint to me and I am sure that he would have done if it had been made. The hon. Gentleman would be best advised, in the interests of the Committee, to let the matter rest.
§ Mr. Molloy (seated and covered)Further to that point of order. May I ask you whether you will consider this point, namely,. that the attendants involved closed the doors at your instructions and they were determined to carry out your instructions but were being prevented from doing so. I do feel that to say that they have to complain personally
| Division No. 99.] | AYES | [2.31 a.m. |
| Adley, Robert | Body, Richard | Chapman, Sydney |
| Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) | Boscawen, Robert | Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher |
| Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) | Bossom, Sir Clive | Chichester-Clark, R. |
| Archer, Jeffrey (Louth) | Bowden, Andrew | Churchill, W. S. |
| Astor, John | Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John | Clark, William (Surrey, E.) |
| Atkins, Humphrey | Brains, Bernard | Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) |
| Awdry, Daniel | Bray, Ronald | Clegg, Walter |
| Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone) | Brewis, John | Cockeram, Eric |
| Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) | Brinton, Sir Tatton | Cooke, Robert |
| Balniel, Lord | Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher | Coombs, Derek |
| Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Cooper, A. E. |
| Batsford, Brian | Bruce-Gardyne, J. | Cordle, John |
| Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton | Byran, Paul | Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| Bell, Ronald | Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M) | Cormack, Patrick |
| Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport) | Buck, Antony | Contain, A. P. |
| Benyon, W. | Bullus, Sir Eric | Critchley, Julian |
| Berry, Hn. Anthony | Burden, F. A. | Crouch, David |
| Biffen, John | Butler, Adam (Bosworth) | Crowder, F. P. |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Carlisle, Mark | Curran, Charles |
| Blaker, Pater | Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert | Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford) |
| Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) | Channon, Paul | d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry |
§ is placing an additional burden upon them——
§ Mr. Molloy (seated and covered)You have just demonstrated the validity of my argument. It was you, Mr. Chairman who shouted, "Lock the doors", and it was hon. Members opposite who would not let the servants of the House lock the doors. If this is not carried out there will be no proper Division. To say that they have to complain personally is an unfair burden. Despite the fact that they have not personally complained I think that you ought to consider investigating this matter.
The ChairmanNo, I do not think that I should change my Ruling. It was perfectly correct to do what I have done. If there had been any cause for complaint I am sure it would have been made. This is an incident which occurs from time to time. The procedure is always the same. If the complaint is made it is made to the Serjeant, and I have seen these complaints made in the past. Members have been admonished about it. In this case there had clearly been a mistake by the Table and it was quite natural that there would be something of an avalanche of people trying to get in because they thought they had made a mistake.
The mistake was made here and I have, I hope, made a full apology to the Committee. I think we should leave the matter there. I trust in the good sense of the hon. Gentleman to do so.
§ The Committee having divided: Ayes 300, Noes 189.
| d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack | Jopling, Michael | Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis |
| Dean, Paul | Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith | Quennell, Miss J. M. |
| Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. | Kellett, Mrs. Elaine | Raison, Timothy |
| Digby, Simon Wingfield | Kershaw, Anthony | Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James |
| Dixon, Piers | Kilfedder, James | Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter |
| Dodds-Parker, Douglas | Kimball, Marcus | Redmond, Robert |
| Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec | King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) | Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.) |
| Drayson, G. B. | King, Tom (Bridgwater) | Rees, Peter (Dover) |
| du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward | Kinsey, J. R. | Rees-Davies, W. R. |
| Dykes, Hugh | Kirk, Peter | Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David |
| Eden, Sir John | Kitson, Timothy | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon |
| Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Knight, Mrs. Jill | Ridley, Hn. Nicholas |
| Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Knox, David | Ridsdale, Julian |
| Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.) | Lambton, Antony | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.) |
| Emery, Peter | Lane, David | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) |
| Eyre, Reginald | Langford-Holt, Sir John | Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) |
| Farr, John | Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry | Rost, Peter |
| Fell, Anthony | Le Marchant, Spencer | Royle, Anthony |
| Fidler, Michael | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Russell, Sir Ronald |
| Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead) | Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone) | St. John-Stevas, Norman |
| Fisher, Mrs. Doris(B'ham,Ladywood) | Longden, Gilbert | Scott, Nicholas |
| Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Loveridge, John | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | McAdden, Sir Stephen | Shelton, William (Clapham) |
| Fortescue, Tim | MacArthur, Ian | Simeons, Charles |
| Foster, Sir John | McCrindle, R. A. | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Fowler, Norman | McLaren, Martin | Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington) |
| Fox, Marcus | Maclean, Sir Fitzroy | Soref, Harold |
| Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone) | McMaster, Stanley | Speed, Keith |
| Fry, Peter | Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham) | Spence, John |
| Galbraith, Hn. T. G. | McNair-Wilson, Michael | Sproat, Iain |
| Gardner, Edward | McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest) | Stainton, Keith |
| Gibson-Watt, David | Maddan, Martin | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) | Madel, David | Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper) |
| Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) | Maginnis, John E. | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. |
| Glyn, Dr. Alan | Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest | Stokes, John |
| Goodhart, Philip | Marten, Neil | Stuttaford, Dr. Tom |
| Goodnew, Victor | Mather, Carol | Sutcliffe, John |
| Gorst, John | Maude, Angus | Tapsell, Peter |
| Gower, Raymond | Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald | Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) |
| Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.) | Mawby, Ray | Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart) |
| Gray, Hamish | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) |
| Green, Alan | Meyer, Sir Anthony | Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.) |
| Grieve, Percy | Mills, Peter (Torrington) | Tebbit, Norman |
| Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) | Miscampbell, Norman | Temple, John M. |
| Grylls, Michael | Mitchell, Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W.) | Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret |
| Gummer, Selwyn | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth) |
| Gurden, Harold | Moate, Roger | Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.) |
| Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley) | Molyneaux, James | Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.) |
| Hall-Davis, A. G. F. | Money, Ernle | Tilney, John |
| Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Monks, Mrs. Connie | Trafford, Dr. Anthony |
| Hannam, John (Exeter) | Monro, Hector | Trew, Peter |
| Harrison, Brian (Maldon) | Montgomery, Fergus | Tugendhat, Christopher |
| Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) | More, Jasper | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. |
| Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere | Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh) | Vaughan, Dr. Gerard |
| Haselhurst, Alan | Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm. | Vickers, Dame Joan |
| Hastings, Stephen | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) | Waddington, David |
| Havers, Michael | Mudd, David | Walder, David (Clitheroe) |
| Hayhoe, Barney | Murton, Oscar | Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester) |
| Heseltine, Michael | Nabarro, Sir Gerald | Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek |
| Hicks, Robert | Neave, Airey | Wall, Patrick |
| Higgins, Terence L. | Nicholls, Sir Harmar | Walters, Dennis |
| Hiley, Joseph | Normanton, Tom | Ward, Dame Irene |
| Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.) | Nott, John | Warren, Kenneth |
| Hill, James (Southampton, Test) | Onslow, Cranley | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Holland, Philip | Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Holt, Miss Mary | Osborn, John | White, Roger (Gravesend) |
| Hordern, Peter | Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.) | Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William |
| Hornby, Richard | Page, Graham (Crosby) | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia | Page, John (Harrow, W.) | Wilkinson, John |
| Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate) | Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.) | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Howell, David (Guildford) | Peel, John | Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.) | Percival, Ian | Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher |
| Hunt, John | Peyton, Rt. Hn. John | Woodnutt, Mark |
| Hutchison, Michael Clark | Pike, Miss Mervyn | Worsley, Marcus |
| Iremonger, T. L. | Pink, R. Bonner | Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R. |
| James, David | Pounder, Rafton | Younger, Hn. George |
| Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) | Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Jessel, Toby | Price, David (Eastleigh) | Mr. Paul Hawkins and |
| Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead) | Proudfoot, Wilfred | Mr. Hugh Rossi. |
| NOES | ||
| Albu, Austen | Dunn, James A. | Lawson, George |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Dunnett, Jack | Leonard, Dick |
| Allen, Scholefield | Eadie, Alex | Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold |
| Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis) | Edeiman, Maurice | Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.) |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Edwards, Robert (Bilston) | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) |
| Ashton, Joe | Edwards, William (Merioneth) | Lomas, Kenneth |
| Atkinson, Norman | Ellis, Tom | Loughlin, Charles |
| Begier, Gordon A. T. | English, Michael | Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson |
| Byrnes, Michael | Evans, Fred | McCartney, Hugh |
| Barnett, Joel | Fernyhough, E. | McGuire, Michael |
| Beaney, Alan | Fisher, Mrs.Doris(B'ham,Ladywood) | Mackenzie, Gregor |
| Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood | Fitch, Alan (Wigan) | Mackie, John |
| Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton) | Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) | Maclennan, Robert |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) |
| Bishop, E. S. | Foley, Maurice | McNamara, J. Kevin |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Foot, Michael | Mahon, Simon (Bootle) |
| Boardman, H. (Leigh) | Ford, Ben | Marquand, David |
| Booth, Albert | Forrester, John | Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur | Fraser, John (Norwood) | Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy |
| Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland) | Freeson, Reginald | Meacher, Michael |
| Bradley, Tom | Galpern, Sir Myer | Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert |
| Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) | Garrett, W. E. | Millan, Bruce |
| Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) | Gilbert, Dr. John | Morgan, Elysian (Cardiganshire) |
| Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury) | Ginsburg, David | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) |
| Buchan, Norman | Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C. | Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) | Grant, George (Merpeth) | O'Halloran, Michael |
| Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) | Grant, John D. (Islington, E.) | Orme, Stanley |
| Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James | Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) | Oswald, Thomas |
| Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.) | Griffiths, Will (Exchange) | Paget, R. T. |
| Cant, R. B. | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Parker, John (Dagenham) |
| Carmichael, Neil | Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) | Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange) |
| Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield) | Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill) | Pavitt, Laurie |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles) | Hardy, Peter | Pendry, Tom |
| Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara | Harper, Joseph | Perry, Ernest G. |
| Clark, David (Calne Valley) | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Prescott, John |
| Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.) | Hart, Rt. Hn. Denis | Price, William (Rugby) |
| Cohen, Stanley | Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Coleman, Donald | Heffer, Eric S. | Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon) |
| Concannon, J. D. | Hilton, W. S. | Robertson, John (Paisley) |
| Conlan, Bernard | Horam, John | Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor) |
| Corbet, Mrs. Freda | Howell, Denis (Small Heath) | Roper, John |
| Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.) | Huckfield, Leslie | Rose, Paul B. |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Hughes, Rt. Hn, Cledwyn (Anglesey) | Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne) |
| Cronin, John | Hughes, Mark (Durham) | Sillars, James |
| Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.) | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.) | Skinner, Dennis |
| Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven) | Hunter, Adam | Small, William |
| Dalyell, Tam | Janner, Greville | Spearing, Nigel |
| Darling, Rt. Hn. George | Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Stallard, A. W. |
| Davidson, Arthur | Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'B'n&St.P'Cras,S.) | Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John |
| Davies, Denzil (Llanelly) | Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Swain, Thomas |
| Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) | Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.) |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | John, Brynmor | Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.) |
| Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.) | Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) | Tomney, Frank |
| Deakins, Eric | Johnson James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) | Urwin, T. W. |
| de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey | Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.) | Varley, Eric G. |
| Delargy, H. J. | Jones, Barry (Flint, E.) | Weitzman, David |
| Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund | Jones, Dan (Burnley) | White, James (Glasgow, Pollok) |
| Dempsey, James | Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.) | Whitlock, William |
| Doig, Peter | Kaufman, Gerald | Wilson, William (Coventry, S.) |
| Dormand, J. D. | Kelley, Richard | |
| Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.) | Kerr, Russell | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Douglas-Mann, Bruce | Kinnock, Neil | Mr. John Golding and |
| Driberg, Tom | Lambie, David | Mr. William Hamling. |
| Duffy, A. E. P. | Lamond, James |
§ Clause 18, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
1046§ Clause 19 to 21 ordered to stand part of the Bill.