HC Deb 28 January 1971 vol 810 cc1029-39

Amendment made: No. 496 in page 13, line 20, leave out 'or section 14'.—[Mr. Dudley Smith.]

Question put, That the Clause as amended, stand part of the Bill.

The Committee proceeded to a Division

The Chairman

Lock the doors.

Hon. Members

Order.

The Chairman

Unlock the doors.

Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered)

On a point of order, Sir Robert. I was coming out of the Lobby, and a substantial number, at least seven—[HON. MEMBERS: "Ten."]—hon. Members forced their way against the officials who are responsible for controlling the doors, thereby nullifying the Division. May I have your Ruling, Sir Robert—

The Chairman (Sir Robert Grant-Ferris)

I take the hon. Gentleman's point. I shall call the Division again. There was a technical hitch at the Table here concerned with the clock.

Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered)

Further to that point of order, Sir Robert. Surely, the whole purpose of the limitation of time in which hon. Members may vote will be defeated if we have the Division again. If hon. Members can force their way into the Division Lobby after the time when they are entitled to vote, it nullifies the whole purpose of the limitation of time.

The Chairman

I have taken the hon. Gentleman's point. The fault lies here at the Table entirely.

Mr. John Golding (Newcastle-under-Lyme)

No; they were like a rabble.

The Chairman

Insufficient time was given by the Table to allow hon Members to go into the Lobbies in the proper period laid down by Standing Orders. I apologise to the Committee for the mistake which was made here. It is quite natural, in the circumstances, that hon. Members were in a hurry to go into the Lobby, because, after all, they know very well by now how long they will be here tonight. I apologise to the Committee, and I shall now put the Question again.

The Committee proceeded to a Division

Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered)

On a point of order, Sir Robert. I understood you to say that the Table had given insufficient time for the Division to be taken, and in consequence of the mistake at the Table the hon. Members who forced themselves into the Lobby were justified. Sir Robert, I am extremely sorry, but I challenge your statement because the normal time for a Division was given, and I think it essential that we be clear that, once a Division is called, there is a limited time for hon. Members to go into the Lobby; otherwise, the time limit can be eliminated.

The Chairman

I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman believes what he is saying to be right. In fact, it is not. There was a mistake made here. We did not set the clock in the right way to make sure there was enough time. It was a simple error at the Table. There was insufficient time given. I assure the hon. Gentleman that that was so. As Chairman, the only thing I could do was to call the Division again so that the mistake could be rectified. I feel sure that the Committee will wish to exonerate us at this late hour for the mistake which we made.

Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered)

I am sorry, Sir Robert. Further to that point of order——

The Chairman

Order. No. I must announce the Tellers again first.

Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered)

No, it would be——

Division No. 98.] AYES [2.16 a.m.
Adley, Robert Benyon, W. Brinton, Sir Tatton
Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) Berry, Hn. Anthony Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) Biffen, John Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)
Astor, John Biggs-Davison, John Bruce-Gardyne, J.
Atkins, Humphrey Blaker, Peter Bryan, Paul
Awdry, Daniel Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M)
Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone) Body, Richard Buck, Antony
Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) Boscawen, R. T. Bullus, Sir Eric
Balniel, Lord Bossom, Sir Clive Burden, F. A.
Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony Bowden, Andrew Butter, Adam (Bosworth)
Batsford, Brian Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John Carlisle, Mark
Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton Braine, Bernard Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert
Bell, Ronald Bray, Ronald Channon, Paul
Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport) Brewis, John Chapman, Sydney
The Chairman

Order. The Question is, That Clause 16, as amended, stand part of the Bill——

Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered)

Sir Robert, I must——

The Chairman

Order. Tellers for the Ayes: Mr. Monro, Mr. Goodhew. Tellers for the Noes: Mr. Golding, Mr. Hamling.

Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered)

With all due respect, Sir Robert, I request you to send for Mr. Speaker. This is a travesty of the rules of order of this House. I must ask you to send for Mr. Speaker so that he can give a Ruling.

On my point order, it may be that the Table made a mistake, but hon. Members dashing down the Chamber to the Division Lobby did not know that there had been a mistake. It could only be a mistake in retrospect, and hon. Members on the Government side forcing themselves into the Division Lobby make a nonsense of our procedures. Hon. Members opposite actually physically assaulted an official of the House. I must ask you, with due deference, to send for Mr. Speaker.

The Chairman

Order. I cannot accede to the hon. Gentleman's request. I consider that what I have done is my duty. It is not a practical proposition for an hon. Member to direct the Chair to send for Mr. Speaker. That is in the discretion of the Chair. I rule that there is no cause for me to send for Mr. Speaker. As far as I am concerned, that is the end of the matter.

Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered)

As I see it, Sir Robert, a mistake was made, and I ask you to reconsider that point of view.

The Committee having divided: Ayes 296, Noes 175.

Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher Holt, Miss Mary Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)
Chichester-Clark, R. Hordern, Peter Peel, John
Churchill, W. S. Hornby, Richard Percival, Ian
Clark, William (Surrey, E.) Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia Peyton, Rt. Hn. John
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate) Pike, Miss Mervyn
Clegg, Walter Howell, David (Guildford) Pink, R. Bonner
Cockeram, Eric Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.) Pounder, Rafton
Cooke, Robert Hunt, John Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch
Coombs, Derek Hutchison, Michael Clark Price, David (Eastleigh)
Cooper, A. E. Iremonger, T. L. Proudfoot, Wilfred
Cordle, John James, David Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis
Corfield, F. V. Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) Quennell, Miss J. M.
Cormack, Patrick Jessel, Toby Raison, Timothy
Costain, A. P. Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead) Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James
Critchley, Julian Jopling, Michael Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter
Crouch, David Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith Reed, D. (Sedgefield)
Crowder, F. P. Kellett, Mrs. Elaine Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)
Curran, Charles Kershaw, Anthony Rees, Hn. Peter (Dover)
Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford) Kilfedder, James Rees-Davies, W. R.
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry Kimball, Marcus Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Dean, Paul King, Tom (Bridgwater) Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. Kinsey, J. R. Ridsdale, Julian
Dighy, Simon Wingfield Kirk, Peter Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)
Dixon, Piers Kitson, Timothy Roberts, Wyn (Conway)
Dodds-Parker, Douglas Knight, Mrs. Jill Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)
Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec Knox, David Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
Drayson, G. B. Lambton, Antony Rost, Peter
du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward Lane, David Royle, Anthony
Dykes, Hugh Langford-Holt, Sir John Russell, Sir Ronald
Eden, Sir John Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry St. John-Stevas, Norman
Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) Le Marchant, Spencer Scott, Nicholas
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Scott-Hopkins, James
Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.) Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone) Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)
Emery, Peter Longden, Gilbert Shelton, William (Clapham)
Eyre, Reginald Loveridge, John Simeons, Charles
Farr, John McAdden, Sir Stephen Sinclair, Sir George
Fell, Anthony MacArthur, Ian Skeet, T. H. H.
Fenner, Mrs. Peggy McCrindle, R. A. Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)
Fidler, Michael McLaren, Martin Soref, Harold
Fletcher-Cooke, Charles Maclean, Sir Fitzroy Speed, Keith
Fookes, Miss Janet McMaster, Stanley Spence, John
Fortescue, Tim Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham) Sproat, Iain
Foster, Sir John McNair-Wilson, Michael Stainton, Keith
Fowler, Norman McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest) Stanbrook, Ivor
Fox, Marcus Maddan, Martin Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)
Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone) Madel, David Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.
Fry, Peter Maginnis, John E. Stokes, John
Galbraith, Hn, T. G. Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest Stuttaford, Dr. Tom
Gardner, Edward Marton, Neil Sutcliffe, John
Gibson-Watt, David Mather, Carol Tapsell, Peter
Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) Maude, Angus Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)
Glyn, Dr, Alan Mawby, Ray Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)
Goodhart, Philip Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)
Gorst, John Meyer, Sir Anthony Tebbit, Norman
Gower, Raymond Mills, Peter (Torrington) Temple, John M.
Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.) Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret
Gray, Hamish Miscampbell, Norman Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)
Green, Alan Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W) Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)
Grieve, Percy Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) Moats, Roger Tilney, John
Grylls, Michael Molyneaux, James Trafford, Dr. Anthony
Gummer, Selwyn Money, Ernle D. Trew, Peter
Gurden, Harold Monks, Mrs. Connie Tugendhat, Christopher
Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley) Montgomery, Fergus Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.
Hall-Davis, A. G. F. More, Jasper Vaughan, Dr. Gerard
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh) Vickers, Dame Joan
Hannam, John (Exeter) Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm. Waddington, David
Harrison, Brian (Maldon) Morrison, Charles (Devizes) Walder, David (Clitheroe)
Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) Mudd, David Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)
Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere Murton, Oscar Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek
Haselhurst, Alan Nabarro, Sir Gerald Wall, Patrick
Hastings, Stephen Neave, Airey Walters, Dennis
Havers, Michael Nicholls, Sir Harmar Ward, Dame Irene
Hawkins, Paul Normanton, Tom Warren, Kenneth
Hayhoe, Barney Note, John Weatherill, Bernard
Hicks, Robert Onslow, Cranley Wells, John (Maidstone)
Higgins, Terence L. Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally White, Roger (Gravesend)
Hiley, Joseph Osborn, John Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William
Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.) Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.) Wiggin, Jerry
Hill, James (Southampton, Test) Page, Graham (Crosby) Wilkinson, John
Holland, Philip Page, John (Harrow, W.) Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick
Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard Worsley, Marcus TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R. Mr. Hector Monro and
Woodnutt, Mark Younger, Hn. George Mr. Victor Goodhew.
NOES
Albu, Austen Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.) Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Douglas-Mann, Bruce Jones, Dan (Burnley)
Allen, Scholefield Driberg, Tom Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)
Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis) Duffy, A. E. P. Kaufman, Gerald
Armstrong, Ernest Dunn, James A. Kelley, Richard
Ashton, Joe Dunnett, Jack Kerr, Russell
Atkinson, Norman Eadie, Alex Kinnock, Neil
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Edelman, Maurice Lambie, David
Barnes, Michael Edwards, Robert (Bilston) Lamond, James
Barnett, Joel Edwards, William (Merioneth) Lawson, George
Beaney, Alan Ellis, Tom Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold
Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood English, Michael Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)
Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Evans, Fred Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Bidwell, Sydney Fernyhough, E. Lomas, Kenneth
Bishop, E. S. Fisher, Mrs.Doris(B'ham,Ladywood) Loughlin, Charles
Blenkinsop, Arthur Fitch, Alan (Wigan) Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson
Boardman, H. (Leigh) Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) McCartney, Hugh
Booth, Albert Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) McGuire, Michael
Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur Foley, Maurice Mackie, John
Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland) Foot, Michael McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)
Bradley, Tom Ford, Ben McNamara, J. Kevin
Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.) Fornester, John Mahon, Simon (Bootle)
Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) Fraser, John (Norwood) Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard
Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury) Freeson, Reginald Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy
Buchan, Norman Galpern, Sir Myer Meacher, Michael
Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) Garrett, W. E. Molloy, William
Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) Gilbert, Dr. John Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)
Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James Ginsburg, David Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)
Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.) Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C. O'Halloran, Michael
Cant, R. B. Grant, George (Morpeth) Orme, Stanley
Carmichael, Neil Grant, John D. (Islington, E.) Oswald, Thomas
Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield) Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)
Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccies) Griffiths, Will (Exchange) Pavitt, Laurie
Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara Hamilton, James (Bothwell) Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred
Clark, David (Colne Valley) Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) Pendry, Tom
Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.) Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill) Perry, Ernest G.
Cohen, Stanley Hardy, Peter Prescott, John
Coleman, Donald Harper, Joseph Price, William (Rugby)
Concannon, J. D. Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Conlan, Bernard Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)
Corbet, Mrs. Freda Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis Roper, John
Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.) Heffer, Eric S. Rose, Paul B.
Crawshaw, Richard Hilton, W. S. Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)
Cronin, John Horam, John Silverman, Julius
Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.) Howell, Denis (Small Heath) Skinner, Dennis
Cunningham, Dr. J. A, (Whitehaven) Huckfield, Leslie Spearing, Nigel
Dalyell, Tam Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) Stoddart, David (Swindon)
Darling, Rt. Hn. George Hughes, Dr. Mark (Durham) Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John
Davidson, Arthur Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.) Strang, Gavin
Davies, Denzil (Llanelly) Hughes, Roy (Newport) Urwin, T. W.
Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) Hunter, Adam Varley, Eric G.
Davies, Ifor (Gower) Janner, Creville Weitzman, David
Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.) Jay, Rt. Hn, Douglas White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)
Deakins, Eric Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.) Whitlock, William
de Frietas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)
Delargy, H J. Jenkins. Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)
Dell, Rt. Hn, Edmund John, Brynmor TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Dempsey, James Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) Mr. John Golding and
Doig, Peter Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull,W.) Mr. William Hamling.
Dormand, J. D. Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

Clause 16, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered)

On a point of order, Sir Robert.

The Chairman

Order. Will the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Loughlin) please resume his seat and remained uncovered? The Division is over aid he should stand in the ordinary way, without a hat on. But I am afraid that I cannot take a point of order because I am expressly excluded from doing so. I cannot take a point of order; nor can I take a dilatory Motion.

Mr. Loughlin

On a point of Order——

The Chairman

Order. I must proceed. I cannot take a point of order. I am sorry—[Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman will please resume his seat. I will explain further to him.

Mr. Loughlin

On a point of Order——

The Chairman

Order. If the hon. Gentleman will resume his seat for a moment I will further explain to him [Interruption.] Order.

Mr. Loughlin

On a point order——

The Chairman

Order. There is no point of order. The hon. Gentleman is a very experienced——

Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered)

On a point of order—

The Chairman

Order. As long as the hon. Gentleman does not speak he can remain covered. He and I are both old Members of the House of Commons and we know that we have to observe the rules. He knows as well as I do that when the Chair gives a Ruling that Ruling must simply be obeyed. I know I am right. There cannot be a point of order during the transaction of the guillotine at all——

Mr. Loughlinrose——

The Chairman

—except during a Division. On the other hand, neither can the Government, feeling that they have had enough and would like to retire to their beds, move a dilatory Motion. It cuts both ways. Everything is quite fair. There can be no other business but the transaction of the business we are engaged upon. Knowing the hon. Gentleman as I do and his sense of fair play —[Interruption.]—I am sure he will not wish to put the Chair in an impossible position. We must now proceed to the next business.

Clause 17 ordered to stand part of the Bill

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