§ Amendment made: No. 496 in page 13, line 20, leave out 'or section 14'.—[Mr. Dudley Smith.]
§ Question put, That the Clause as amended, stand part of the Bill.
§ The Committee proceeded to a Division—
§ The ChairmanLock the doors.
§ The ChairmanUnlock the doors.
§ Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered)On a point of order, Sir Robert. I was coming out of the Lobby, and a substantial number, at least seven—[HON. MEMBERS: "Ten."]—hon. Members forced their way against the officials who are responsible for controlling the doors, thereby nullifying the Division. May I have your Ruling, Sir Robert—
§ The Chairman (Sir Robert Grant-Ferris)I take the hon. Gentleman's point. I shall call the Division again. There was a technical hitch at the Table here concerned with the clock.
§ Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered)Further to that point of order, Sir Robert. Surely, the whole purpose of the limitation of time in which hon. Members may vote will be defeated if we have the Division again. If hon. Members can force their way into the Division Lobby after the time when they are entitled to vote, it nullifies the whole purpose of the limitation of time.
§ The ChairmanI have taken the hon. Gentleman's point. The fault lies here at the Table entirely.
§ Mr. John Golding (Newcastle-under-Lyme)No; they were like a rabble.
§ The ChairmanInsufficient time was given by the Table to allow hon Members to go into the Lobbies in the proper period laid down by Standing Orders. I apologise to the Committee for the mistake which was made here. It is quite natural, in the circumstances, that hon. Members were in a hurry to go into the Lobby, because, after all, they know very well by now how long they will be 1033 here tonight. I apologise to the Committee, and I shall now put the Question again.
§ The Committee proceeded to a Division—
§ Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered)On a point of order, Sir Robert. I understood you to say that the Table had given insufficient time for the Division to be taken, and in consequence of the mistake at the Table the hon. Members who forced themselves into the Lobby were justified. Sir Robert, I am extremely sorry, but I challenge your statement because the normal time for a Division was given, and I think it essential that we be clear that, once a Division is called, there is a limited time for hon. Members to go into the Lobby; otherwise, the time limit can be eliminated.
§ The ChairmanI appreciate that the hon. Gentleman believes what he is saying to be right. In fact, it is not. There was a mistake made here. We did not set the clock in the right way to make sure there was enough time. It was a simple error at the Table. There was insufficient time given. I assure the hon. Gentleman that that was so. As Chairman, the only thing I could do was to call the Division again so that the mistake could be rectified. I feel sure that the Committee will wish to exonerate us at this late hour for the mistake which we made.
§ Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered)I am sorry, Sir Robert. Further to that point of order——
§ The ChairmanOrder. No. I must announce the Tellers again first.
§ Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered)No, it would be——
| Division No. 98.] | AYES | [2.16 a.m. |
| Adley, Robert | Benyon, W. | Brinton, Sir Tatton |
| Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) | Berry, Hn. Anthony | Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher |
| Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) | Biffen, John | Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) |
| Astor, John | Biggs-Davison, John | Bruce-Gardyne, J. |
| Atkins, Humphrey | Blaker, Peter | Bryan, Paul |
| Awdry, Daniel | Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) | Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M) |
| Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone) | Body, Richard | Buck, Antony |
| Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) | Boscawen, R. T. | Bullus, Sir Eric |
| Balniel, Lord | Bossom, Sir Clive | Burden, F. A. |
| Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Bowden, Andrew | Butter, Adam (Bosworth) |
| Batsford, Brian | Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John | Carlisle, Mark |
| Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton | Braine, Bernard | Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert |
| Bell, Ronald | Bray, Ronald | Channon, Paul |
| Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport) | Brewis, John | Chapman, Sydney |
§ The ChairmanOrder. The Question is, That Clause 16, as amended, stand part of the Bill——
§ Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered)Sir Robert, I must——
§ The ChairmanOrder. Tellers for the Ayes: Mr. Monro, Mr. Goodhew. Tellers for the Noes: Mr. Golding, Mr. Hamling.
§ Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered)With all due respect, Sir Robert, I request you to send for Mr. Speaker. This is a travesty of the rules of order of this House. I must ask you to send for Mr. Speaker so that he can give a Ruling.
On my point order, it may be that the Table made a mistake, but hon. Members dashing down the Chamber to the Division Lobby did not know that there had been a mistake. It could only be a mistake in retrospect, and hon. Members on the Government side forcing themselves into the Division Lobby make a nonsense of our procedures. Hon. Members opposite actually physically assaulted an official of the House. I must ask you, with due deference, to send for Mr. Speaker.
§ The ChairmanOrder. I cannot accede to the hon. Gentleman's request. I consider that what I have done is my duty. It is not a practical proposition for an hon. Member to direct the Chair to send for Mr. Speaker. That is in the discretion of the Chair. I rule that there is no cause for me to send for Mr. Speaker. As far as I am concerned, that is the end of the matter.
§ Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered)As I see it, Sir Robert, a mistake was made, and I ask you to reconsider that point of view.
§ The Committee having divided: Ayes 296, Noes 175.
| Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher | Holt, Miss Mary | Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.) |
| Chichester-Clark, R. | Hordern, Peter | Peel, John |
| Churchill, W. S. | Hornby, Richard | Percival, Ian |
| Clark, William (Surrey, E.) | Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia | Peyton, Rt. Hn. John |
| Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate) | Pike, Miss Mervyn |
| Clegg, Walter | Howell, David (Guildford) | Pink, R. Bonner |
| Cockeram, Eric | Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.) | Pounder, Rafton |
| Cooke, Robert | Hunt, John | Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch |
| Coombs, Derek | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Price, David (Eastleigh) |
| Cooper, A. E. | Iremonger, T. L. | Proudfoot, Wilfred |
| Cordle, John | James, David | Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis |
| Corfield, F. V. | Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) | Quennell, Miss J. M. |
| Cormack, Patrick | Jessel, Toby | Raison, Timothy |
| Costain, A. P. | Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead) | Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James |
| Critchley, Julian | Jopling, Michael | Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter |
| Crouch, David | Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith | Reed, D. (Sedgefield) |
| Crowder, F. P. | Kellett, Mrs. Elaine | Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.) |
| Curran, Charles | Kershaw, Anthony | Rees, Hn. Peter (Dover) |
| Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford) | Kilfedder, James | Rees-Davies, W. R. |
| d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry | Kimball, Marcus | Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David |
| d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack | King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon |
| Dean, Paul | King, Tom (Bridgwater) | Ridley, Hn. Nicholas |
| Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. | Kinsey, J. R. | Ridsdale, Julian |
| Dighy, Simon Wingfield | Kirk, Peter | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.) |
| Dixon, Piers | Kitson, Timothy | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) |
| Dodds-Parker, Douglas | Knight, Mrs. Jill | Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) |
| Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec | Knox, David | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) |
| Drayson, G. B. | Lambton, Antony | Rost, Peter |
| du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward | Lane, David | Royle, Anthony |
| Dykes, Hugh | Langford-Holt, Sir John | Russell, Sir Ronald |
| Eden, Sir John | Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry | St. John-Stevas, Norman |
| Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Le Marchant, Spencer | Scott, Nicholas |
| Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Scott-Hopkins, James |
| Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.) | Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone) | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) |
| Emery, Peter | Longden, Gilbert | Shelton, William (Clapham) |
| Eyre, Reginald | Loveridge, John | Simeons, Charles |
| Farr, John | McAdden, Sir Stephen | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Fell, Anthony | MacArthur, Ian | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Fenner, Mrs. Peggy | McCrindle, R. A. | Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington) |
| Fidler, Michael | McLaren, Martin | Soref, Harold |
| Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Maclean, Sir Fitzroy | Speed, Keith |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | McMaster, Stanley | Spence, John |
| Fortescue, Tim | Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham) | Sproat, Iain |
| Foster, Sir John | McNair-Wilson, Michael | Stainton, Keith |
| Fowler, Norman | McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest) | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Fox, Marcus | Maddan, Martin | Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper) |
| Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone) | Madel, David | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. |
| Fry, Peter | Maginnis, John E. | Stokes, John |
| Galbraith, Hn, T. G. | Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest | Stuttaford, Dr. Tom |
| Gardner, Edward | Marton, Neil | Sutcliffe, John |
| Gibson-Watt, David | Mather, Carol | Tapsell, Peter |
| Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) | Maude, Angus | Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) |
| Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) | Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald | Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart) |
| Glyn, Dr, Alan | Mawby, Ray | Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) |
| Goodhart, Philip | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.) |
| Gorst, John | Meyer, Sir Anthony | Tebbit, Norman |
| Gower, Raymond | Mills, Peter (Torrington) | Temple, John M. |
| Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.) | Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) | Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret |
| Gray, Hamish | Miscampbell, Norman | Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth) |
| Green, Alan | Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W) | Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.) |
| Grieve, Percy | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.) |
| Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) | Moats, Roger | Tilney, John |
| Grylls, Michael | Molyneaux, James | Trafford, Dr. Anthony |
| Gummer, Selwyn | Money, Ernle D. | Trew, Peter |
| Gurden, Harold | Monks, Mrs. Connie | Tugendhat, Christopher |
| Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley) | Montgomery, Fergus | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. |
| Hall-Davis, A. G. F. | More, Jasper | Vaughan, Dr. Gerard |
| Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh) | Vickers, Dame Joan |
| Hannam, John (Exeter) | Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm. | Waddington, David |
| Harrison, Brian (Maldon) | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) | Walder, David (Clitheroe) |
| Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) | Mudd, David | Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester) |
| Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere | Murton, Oscar | Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek |
| Haselhurst, Alan | Nabarro, Sir Gerald | Wall, Patrick |
| Hastings, Stephen | Neave, Airey | Walters, Dennis |
| Havers, Michael | Nicholls, Sir Harmar | Ward, Dame Irene |
| Hawkins, Paul | Normanton, Tom | Warren, Kenneth |
| Hayhoe, Barney | Note, John | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Hicks, Robert | Onslow, Cranley | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Higgins, Terence L. | Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally | White, Roger (Gravesend) |
| Hiley, Joseph | Osborn, John | Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William |
| Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.) | Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.) | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Hill, James (Southampton, Test) | Page, Graham (Crosby) | Wilkinson, John |
| Holland, Philip | Page, John (Harrow, W.) | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard | Worsley, Marcus | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher | Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R. | Mr. Hector Monro and |
| Woodnutt, Mark | Younger, Hn. George | Mr. Victor Goodhew. |
| NOES | ||
| Albu, Austen | Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.) | Jones, Barry (Flint, E.) |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Douglas-Mann, Bruce | Jones, Dan (Burnley) |
| Allen, Scholefield | Driberg, Tom | Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.) |
| Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis) | Duffy, A. E. P. | Kaufman, Gerald |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Dunn, James A. | Kelley, Richard |
| Ashton, Joe | Dunnett, Jack | Kerr, Russell |
| Atkinson, Norman | Eadie, Alex | Kinnock, Neil |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Edelman, Maurice | Lambie, David |
| Barnes, Michael | Edwards, Robert (Bilston) | Lamond, James |
| Barnett, Joel | Edwards, William (Merioneth) | Lawson, George |
| Beaney, Alan | Ellis, Tom | Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold |
| Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood | English, Michael | Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.) |
| Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton) | Evans, Fred | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Fernyhough, E. | Lomas, Kenneth |
| Bishop, E. S. | Fisher, Mrs.Doris(B'ham,Ladywood) | Loughlin, Charles |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Fitch, Alan (Wigan) | Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson |
| Boardman, H. (Leigh) | Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) | McCartney, Hugh |
| Booth, Albert | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | McGuire, Michael |
| Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur | Foley, Maurice | Mackie, John |
| Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland) | Foot, Michael | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) |
| Bradley, Tom | Ford, Ben | McNamara, J. Kevin |
| Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.) | Fornester, John | Mahon, Simon (Bootle) |
| Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) | Fraser, John (Norwood) | Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury) | Freeson, Reginald | Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy |
| Buchan, Norman | Galpern, Sir Myer | Meacher, Michael |
| Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) | Garrett, W. E. | Molloy, William |
| Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) | Gilbert, Dr. John | Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) |
| Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James | Ginsburg, David | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) |
| Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.) | Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C. | O'Halloran, Michael |
| Cant, R. B. | Grant, George (Morpeth) | Orme, Stanley |
| Carmichael, Neil | Grant, John D. (Islington, E.) | Oswald, Thomas |
| Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield) | Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) | Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange) |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccies) | Griffiths, Will (Exchange) | Pavitt, Laurie |
| Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred |
| Clark, David (Colne Valley) | Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) | Pendry, Tom |
| Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.) | Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill) | Perry, Ernest G. |
| Cohen, Stanley | Hardy, Peter | Prescott, John |
| Coleman, Donald | Harper, Joseph | Price, William (Rugby) |
| Concannon, J. D. | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Conlan, Bernard | Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith | Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon) |
| Corbet, Mrs. Freda | Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis | Roper, John |
| Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.) | Heffer, Eric S. | Rose, Paul B. |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Hilton, W. S. | Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne) |
| Cronin, John | Horam, John | Silverman, Julius |
| Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.) | Howell, Denis (Small Heath) | Skinner, Dennis |
| Cunningham, Dr. J. A, (Whitehaven) | Huckfield, Leslie | Spearing, Nigel |
| Dalyell, Tam | Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) | Stoddart, David (Swindon) |
| Darling, Rt. Hn. George | Hughes, Dr. Mark (Durham) | Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John |
| Davidson, Arthur | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.) | Strang, Gavin |
| Davies, Denzil (Llanelly) | Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Urwin, T. W. |
| Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Hunter, Adam | Varley, Eric G. |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Janner, Creville | Weitzman, David |
| Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.) | Jay, Rt. Hn, Douglas | White, James (Glasgow, Pollok) |
| Deakins, Eric | Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.) | Whitlock, William |
| de Frietas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey | Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Wilson, William (Coventry, S.) |
| Delargy, H J. | Jenkins. Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) | |
| Dell, Rt. Hn, Edmund | John, Brynmor | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Dempsey, James | Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) | Mr. John Golding and |
| Doig, Peter | Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull,W.) | Mr. William Hamling. |
| Dormand, J. D. | Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.) |
§ Clause 16, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
§ Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered)On a point of order, Sir Robert.
§ The ChairmanOrder. Will the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Loughlin) please resume his seat and remained uncovered? The Division is over aid he should stand in the ordinary way, without a hat on. But I am afraid that 1038 I cannot take a point of order because I am expressly excluded from doing so. I cannot take a point of order; nor can I take a dilatory Motion.
§ Mr. LoughlinOn a point of Order——
§ The ChairmanOrder. I must proceed. I cannot take a point of order. I am sorry—[Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman will please resume his seat. I will explain further to him.
§ Mr. LoughlinOn a point of Order——
§ The ChairmanOrder. If the hon. Gentleman will resume his seat for a moment I will further explain to him [Interruption.] Order.
§ Mr. LoughlinOn a point order——
§ The ChairmanOrder. There is no point of order. The hon. Gentleman is a very experienced——
§ Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered)On a point of order—
§ The ChairmanOrder. As long as the hon. Gentleman does not speak he can remain covered. He and I are both old Members of the House of Commons and we know that we have to observe the rules. He knows as well as I do that when the Chair gives a Ruling that Ruling must simply be obeyed. I know I am right. There cannot be a point of order during the transaction of the guillotine at all——
§ Mr. Loughlinrose——
§ The Chairman—except during a Division. On the other hand, neither can the Government, feeling that they have had enough and would like to retire to their beds, move a dilatory Motion. It cuts both ways. Everything is quite fair. There can be no other business but the transaction of the business we are engaged upon. Knowing the hon. Gentleman as I do and his sense of fair play —[Interruption.]—I am sure he will not wish to put the Chair in an impossible position. We must now proceed to the next business.
§ Clause 17 ordered to stand part of the Bill