HC Deb 28 January 1971 vol 810 cc1047-55

Question put, That the Clause stand part of the Bill:—

The Committee proceeded to a Division

Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered)

On a point of order. You will recall, Sir Robert, that I said that I would pursue on a point of order the matter which I raised with you earlier in connection with the manhandling of a servant of the House. It was necessary for me to leave it until now, because the servant of the House immediately after the incident went to a rest room and had a cup of tea. I have taken the opportunity of talking to the servant of the House concerned.

Like most servants of the House, he is reluctant to complain about the conduct of hon. Members, but it was clear to me from his answers to questions which I put that he was conscious of not being treated with the kind of courtesy with which he should have been treated. I am satisfied that there is just cause for, and I am asking you to institute, an investigation into the incident to safeguard servants of the House from the thuggery to which, apparently, they are to be subjected in future. On this point of order I am simply asking you in your capacity as the Chairman of Ways and Means to institute an investigation into the incident.

Mr. Maurice Edelman(seated and covered) (Coventry, North)

Further to that point of order. This is by no means a frivolous matter. Indeed, it is a very grave matter affecting every hon. Member. The House has traditionally taken very grave notice of any physical altercation involving an hon. Member, and so it has been throughout the history of the Commons.

It will be within your recollection, Sir Robert, that some years ago a Member of the House was involved in a physical clash with a journalist at one of the bars of the House, and the matter was treated as one of grave consequence and it was reported to a Committee of Privileges. At that time, Mr. Winston Churchill, as he was then, referred to the great significance of any hon. Member being involved in a physical altercation of that kind. The matter was taken extremely seriously.

As this seems to be a matter involving the privileges of the House and as it might involve a grave contempt of the House of Commons, I ask you in furtherance of what my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr.

Division No. 101.] AYES [2.56 a.m.
Adley, Robert Digby, Simon Wingfield Howell, David (Guildford)
Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) Dixon, Piers Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) Dodds-Parker, Douglas Hunt, John
Archer, Jeffrey (Louth) Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec Hutchison, Michael Clark
Astor, John Drayson, G. B. Iremonger, T. L.
Atkins, Humphrey du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward James, David
Awdry, Daniel Eden, Sir John Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone) Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) Jessel, Toby
Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)
Balniel, Lord Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.) Jopling, Michael
Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony Emery, Peter Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith
Batsford, Brian Eyre, Reginald Kellett, Mrs. Elaine
Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton Farr, John Kershaw, Anthony
Bell, Ronald Fell, Anthony Kilfedder, James
Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport) Fenner, Mrs. Peggy Kimball, Marcus
Benyon, W. Fidler, Michael King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)
Berry, Hn. Anthony Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead) King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Biffen, John Fletcher-Cooke, Charles Kinsey, J. R.
Biggs-Davison, John Fookes, Miss Janet Kirk, Peter
Blaker, Peter Fortescue, Tim Kitson, Timothy
Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) Foster, Sir John Knight, Mrs. Jill
Body, Richard Fowler, Norman Knox, David
Boscawen, Robert Fox, Marcus Lambton, Antony
Bossom, Sir Clive Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone) Lane, David
Bowden, Andrew Fry, Peter Langford-Holt, Sir John
Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John Galbraith, Hn. T. G. Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry
Braine, Bernard Gardner, Edward Le Marchant, Spencer
Bray, Ronald Gibson-Watt, David Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
Brewis, John Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)
Brinton, Sir Tatton Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) Longden, Gilbert
Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher Glyn, Dr. Alan Loveridge, John
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Goodhart, Philip McAdden, Sir Stephen
Bruce-Cardyne, J. Goodhew, Victor MacArthur, Ian
Bryan, Paul Gorst, John McCrindle, R. A.
Bachanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M) Gower, Raymond McLaren, Martin
Buck, Antony Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.) Maclean, Sir Fitzroy
Bullus, Sir Eric Gray, Hamish McMaster, Stanley
Burden, F. A. Green, Alan Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)
Butler, Adam (Bosworth) Grieve, Percy McNair-Wilson, Michael
Carlisle, Mark Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)
Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert Grylls, Michael Maddan, Martin
Channon, Paul Gummer, Selwyn Madel, David
Chapman, Sydney Gurden, Harold Maginnis, John E.
Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley) Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest
Chichester-Clark, R. Hall-Davis, A. G. F. Marten, Neil
Churchill, W. S. Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) Mather, Carol
Clark, William (Surrey E.) Hannam, John (Exeter) Maude, Angus
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) Harrison, Brian (Maldon) Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald
Clegg, Walter Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) Mawby, Ray
Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Cockeram, Eric Haselhurst, Alan Meyer, Sir Anthony
Cooke, Robert Havers, Michael Mills, Peter (Torrington)
Coombs, Derek Hawkins, Paul Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)
Cooper, A. E Hayhoe, Barney Miscampbell, Norman
Cordle, John Heseltine, Michael Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W)
Cormack, Patrick Hicks, Robert Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)
Costain, A. P. Higgins, Terence L. Moate, Roger
Critchley, Julian Hiley, Joseph Molyneaux, James
Crouch, David Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.) Money, Ernle
Crowder, F. P. Hill, James (Southampton, Test) Monks, Mrs. Connie
Curran, Charles Holland, Philip Montgomery, Fergus
Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford) Holt, Miss Mary More, Jasper
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry Hordern, Peter Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack Hornby, Richard Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.
Dean, Paul Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia Morrison, Charles (Devizes)
Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate) Mudd, David

Loughlin) has said to report the matter to Mr. Speaker with a view to its being raised with the Committee of Privileges.

The Chairman

I will ask for a report from the Serjeant at Arms and consider the matter when I have it.

The Committee having divided: Ayes 297, Noes 251.

Murton, Oscar Ridsdale, Julian Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)
Nabarro, Sir Gerald Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.) Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)
Heave, Airey Roberts, Wyn (Conway) Tilney, John
Nicholls, Sir Harmar Rodgers, Sr John (Sevenoaks) Trafford, Dr Anthony
Normanton, Tom Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) Trew, Peter
Nott, John Rost, Peter Tugendhat, Christopher
Onslow, Cranley Royle, Anthony Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally Russell, Sir Ronald Vaughan, Dr. Gerard
Osborn, John St. John-Stevas, Norman Vickers, Dame Joan
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.) Scott, Nicholas Waddington, David
Page, Graham (Crosby) Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) Walder, David (Clitheroe)
Page, John (Harrow, W.) Shelton, William (Clapham) Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)
Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.) Simeons, Charles Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek
Peel, John Sinclair, Sir George Walt, Patrick
Percival, Ian Skeet, T. H. H. Walters, Dennis
Peyton, Rt. Hn. John Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington) Ward, Dame Irene
Pike, Miss Mervyn Soref, Harold Warren, Kenneth
Pink, R. Bonner Spence, John Weatherill, Bernard
Pounder, Rafton Sproat, Iain Wells, John (Maidstone)
Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch Stainton, Keith White, Roger (Gravesend)
Stanbrook, Ivor Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William
Price, David (Eastleigh) Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper) Wiggin, Jerry
Proudfoot, Wilfred Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. Wilkinson, John
Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis Stokes, John Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick
Quennell, Miss J. M. Stuttaford, Dr. Tom Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard
Raison, Timothy Sutcliffe, John Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher
Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James Tapsell, Peter Woodnutt, Mark
Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) Worsley, Marcus
Redmond, Robert Taylor,Eelward M.(G'gow,Cathcart) Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.
Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.) Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) Younger, Hn. George
Rees, Peter (Dover) Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)
Reyes-Davies, W. R. Tebbit, Norman TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David Temple, John M. Mr. Hector Monro and
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret Mr. Keith Speed.
Ridley, Hn. Nicholas Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)
Albu, Austen Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven) Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Dalyell, Tam Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)
Allen, Scholefield Darling, Rt. Hn. George Griffiths, Will (Exchange)
Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis) Davidson, Arthur Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
Armstrong, Ernest Davies, Denzil (Llanelly) Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)
Ashton, Joe Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)
Atkinson, Norman Davies, Ifor (Gower) Hardy, Peter
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.) Harper, Joseph
Barnes, Michael Deakins, Eric Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Barnett, Joel de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith
Beaney, Alan Delargy, H. J. Hattersley, Roy
Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis
Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Dempsey, James Heffer, Eric S.
Bidwell, Sydney Doig, Peter Hilton, W. S.
Bishop, E. S. Dormand, J. D. Horam, John
Blenkinsop, Arthur Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.) Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Boardman, H. (Leigh) Douglas-Mann, Bruce Hewell, Denis (Small Heath)
Booth, Albert Driberg, Tom Huckfield, Leslie
Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur Duffy, A. E. P. Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)
Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland) Dunn, James A. Hughes, Mark (Durham)
Bradley, Tom Dunnett, Jack Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)
Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) Eadie, Alex Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) Edelman, Maurice Hunter, Adam
Janner, Greville
Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury) Edwards, Robert (Bilston) Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Buchan, Norman Edwards, William (Merioneth) Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)
Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) Ellis, Tom Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)
Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) English, Michael Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)
Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James Evans, Fred John, Brynmor
Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.) Fernyhough, E. Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)
Cant, R. B. Fisher, Mrs.Doris(B'ham,Ladywood) Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)
Carmichael, Neil Fitch, Alan (Wigan) Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)
Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield) Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)
Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles) Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Jones, Dan (Burnley)
Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara Foley, Maurice Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)
Clark, David (Colne Valley) Foot, Michael Kaufman, Gerald
Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.) Ford, Ben Kelley, Richard
Cohen, Stanley Forrester, John Kerr, Russell
Coleman, Donald Fraser, John (Norwood) Kinnock, Neil
Concannon, J. D. Freeson, Reginald Lambie, David
Conlan, Bernard Galpern, Sir Myer Lamond, James
Corbet, Mrs. Freda Garrett, W. E. Latham, Arthur
Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.) Gilbert, Dr. John Lawson, George
Crawshaw, Richard Ginsburg, David Leadbitter, Ted
Cronin, John Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C. Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.) Grant, George (Morpeth) Leonard, Dick
Lestor, Miss Joan Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick Sillars, James
Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold Murray, Ronald King Skinner, Dennis
Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.) Ogden, Eric Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) O'Halloran, Michael Spearing, Nigel
Lipton, Marcus O'Malley, Brian Spriggs, Leslie
Lomas, Kenneth Oram, Bert Stallard, A. W.
Loughlin, Charles Orbach, Maurice Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)
Lyon, Alexander W. (York) Orme, Stanley Stoddart, David (Swindon)
Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) Oswald, Thomas Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John
Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton) Strang, Gavin
McBride, Neil Paget, R. T. Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley
McCartney, Hugh Palmer, Arthur Swain, Thomas
McElhone, Frank Parker, John (Dagenham) Taverns, Dick
McGuire, Michael Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange) Thomas,Rt.Hn,Gearge (Cardiff,W.)
Mackenzie, Gregor Pavitt, Laurie Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)
Mackie, John Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)
Mackintosh, John P. Pendry, Tom Tinn, James
Maclennan, Robert Pentland, Norman Tomney, Frank
McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) Perry, Ernest G. Torney, Tom
McNamara, J. Kevin Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg. Urwin, T, W.
Varley, Eric G.
Mahon, Simon (Bootle) Prescott, John Wainwright, Edwin
Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E). Price, J. T. (Westhoughton) Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Marks, Kenneth Price, William (Rugby) Wallace, George
Marquand, David Probert, Arthur Watkins, David
Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard Reed, D. (Sedgefield) Weitzman, David
Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.) Wellbeloved, James
Meacher, Michael Richard, Ivor Wells, William (Walsall, N.)
Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert Roberts, Albert (Normanton) White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)
Mendelson, John Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon) Whitlock, William
Mikardo, Ian Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor) Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Millan, Bruce Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees) Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)
Miller, Dr. M. S. Roper, John Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)
Milne, Edward (Blyth) Rose, Paul B. Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)
Molloy, William Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock) Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)
Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne) Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)
Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)
Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) Short,Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne) TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon) Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford) Mr. William Handing and
Moyle, Roland Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich) Mr. John Golding.

Clause 23 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

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