HC Deb 19 January 1971 vol 809 cc731-7
The Secretary of Slate for Scotland (Mr. Gordon Campbell)

With permission, Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a statement about proposed changes in certain agricultural services in Scotland.—[Interruption.] The advisory services in Scotland are the responsibility of the three independent agricultural colleges grant-aided by my Department

Mr. Rankin

On a point of order. Scottish business should surely be treated with the same respect as English business.

Mr. Speaker

I certainly hope it will be.

Mr. Campbell

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In addition to farm advice they are concerned with development work and also with higher agricultural education where they have close links with the universities. This system has worked well, but we need better co-ordination and economy of effort.

As regards the advisory side of the colleges' work, my general aim will be to secure savings in present expenditure by placing greater emphasis on cost-effectiveness and selectivity in the services provided to farmers and by introducing, where appropriate, a system of charging for certain specific services but not for general advice. The responsibility for implementing changes of this character rests on the governing bodies of the colleges and there will be full consultation with them and with other interested organisations.

Turning to development, with the agreement of the governing bodies of the colleges, I have now decided to establish a new three-college body, to be called the Scottish Agricultural Development Council, which will direct and co-ordinate this work in Scotland and enable the three colleges to work more closely together. Membership of the council will, in the main, be drawn from the colleges but will also include other interests concerned with agricultural improvement, and I have particularly in mind the research institutes. The council will be a small planning and directing organisation, with the colleges or other organisations as appropriate carrying out the projects and programmes. There will be further consultation with the governing bodies before the council is set up later this year. This new body will replace the former Scottish Agricultural Improvement Council and its subcommittees which had a purely advisory rôle.

As regards other services, I have decided that grants for the destruction of rabbits and other pests should be discontinued, but in order to allow the rabbit clearance societies to consider the implications, grant will be paid on approved expenditure up to 30th September of this year. Grants to fox destruction clubs will be continued. Arrangements for enforcement of pest control and for control of food infestation will be simplified. Advisory and publicity work on pests will be considerably curtailed.

I also propose to discontinue the appointment of agricultural executive committees. This will require legislation. The committees have given good service over a long period, but it is possible now to make simpler arrangements to carry out their remaining functions. I intend that certain of the advisory and review functions of the committees should be undertaken by a single advisory body, to be constituted by extending the membership and functions of the existing consultative panel which at present is concerned only with the Winter Keep Scheme. In the past the committees have under statute been consulted by the local planning authority on planning proposals. I shall now ask local planning authorities to ensure that during the framing of the planning proposals they maintain close liaison with the local staffs of the Department of Agriculture who have assisted agricultural executive committees in the past.

Mr. Ross

It will be obvious to the House that in the statement made by the Secretary of State no figure has been given in respect of either savings or staff. This follows from the fact that the first statement that the Secretary of State for Scotland has been allowed to make is based on the acceptance of a philosophy completely alien to Scottish tradition and consequently inappropriate to what is required in Scotland.

Will the Secretary of State tell us exactly what effect his announcement will have on the advisory work which has been the basis of the growing efficiency of Scottish agriculture of which we have hitherto been so proud? Will he tell us how he relates cost effectiveness to the saving of £72,000 a year on rabbit clearance societies which cover 4 million acres in Scotland, and what he is doing about pest control?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that only one part of his statement is not in keeping with what was said yesterday, and that is the part dealing with the organisation of research in Scottish colleges? Is he aware that when I was Secretary of State I continued to resist this proposition for the simple reason—as he said at the beginning of his statement—that the colleges were independent agricultural colleges. How can they be inde- pendent agricultural colleges when their research programme, scientific staffing and so on will be dominated by a new executive body, the Scottish Agricultural Development Council? I regret that this announcement was included in his statement, which had nothing to do with the matter but was a trailer of the statement which was made yesterday.

Mr. Campbell

The right hon. Gentleman said that this was the first statement that I had been allowed to make, but I made one last week. In the parliamentary time I have been in office I have answered about twice as many oral Questions as the right hon. Gentleman did in an equivalent period of time. The only statement which he made during that period was an apology to the House for a mistake which had been made by his Department.

Because the advisory services come under the colleges and not under the Department, I cannot quantify savings before consultations with the colleges. In respect of the rest of my statement, I expect a saving of about £100,000. Other savings being made administratively in the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries for Scotland, and savings in the capital grants scheme, will amount to nearly £1 million.

Rabbit clearance societies have been doing very effective work, and most of them have been extremely successful. Where they are successful it is in the farmers' interests that they should continue with the work they are doing. They do not need a grant to help them with this. The pump-priming has already been done.

In my Department about 20 posts will be saved as a result of this statement. The advisory services are not staffed by civil servants, so these are not included. In this figure I expect a further saving of 20 posts from other administrative action which I am taking.

Mr. W. H. K. Baker

As my right hon. Friend's statement is based on Cmnd. 4564, which was presented to the House yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, will he, as the Minister responsible in Scotland for fisheries, give the House a categorical assurance that Her Majesty's Government have no intention whatever of repealing Section 1 of the Fishing Limits Act, 1964?

Mr. Campbell

As my hon. Friend knows, arrangements for agriculture are entirely different in Scotland and, therefore, my statement today is complementary to but not included in my right hon. Friend's White Paper of yesterday. I did not touch on fisheries today, but in answer to a Question on 17th December it was announced that my right hon. Friend and I are not proposing to make changes at present in the machinery and organisation of support for the fishing industry.

Mr. Baxter

In view of the length of the statement made by the Secretary of State for Scotland and its grave implications for the agricultural industry, should not this matter be debated either on the Floor of the House or in the Scottish Grand Committee? I ask him to consult the Leader of the House to see if time can be allowed for a debate.

Mr. Campbell

My right hon. Friend will take note of what has been said, as I do. Since the myth that I have been silent has been fabricated by the Opposition, I am glad that the hon. Gentleman acquits me of this and mentions the length of my statement.

Mr. Wolrige-Gordon

Is my right hon. Friend aware that only this morning the right hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) was castigating his colleague the Under-Secretary of State for Health and Education for speaking too much? It seems that we can never please him. On the question of cost effectiveness and the provision of advice—which is a nice word—will my right hon. Friend say how the cost effectiveness actually works?

Mr. Campbell

We shall consult the colleges about this matter. I can assure my hon. Friend that, for example, advice on crofting in the North of Scotland will continue, but there will be a review of the effectiveness of advice of all kinds for farms.

Mr. Mackintosh

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House whether the Scottish colleges have welcomed the pressure he proposes to put on them to alter their present successful pattern of advice? If he has not yet consulted them, it is shocking that he should produce this statement without first having found out whether they wish to change their pattern of advice. Secondly, has the Secretary of State pointed out to his right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture a curious aspect of Tory philosophy, which is to tell farmers to depend more on the market and then to cancel the grants for the Agricultural Market Development Research Council which is doing research into how better to use the market and whose work in Scotland on seed, potatoes, calves, and vegetable marketing has helped farmers in marketing their produce. Is it not folly to say that farmers should depend more on the market and then stop research on marketing?

Mr. Campbell

The hon. Gentleman has the hypothesis wrong. This has been discussed with the colleges and they have agreed to and welcomed the establishment of the development council. We are proposing a rationalisation of the advisory services which the colleges will continue to give. The hon. Gentleman suggests that various forms of technical advice may be discontinued. This is not so. Some advice will continue and the general advice will be free.

Mr. Gray

The Secretary of State will be aware that in the Highlands of Scotland the rabbit clearance societies have performed an extremely important function. Since the cost of subsidising these societies is only £12,000 a year, would my hon. Friend consider using his influence so as to allow the Highlands and Islands Development Board to take over this annual figure?

Mr. Campbell

As I said earlier, the rabbit clearance societies have been very effective in most of the work they have done, and I am glad my hon. Friend agrees, but I doubt whether the sum of money he mentioned is necessary in order that their good work should continue. It is in the farmers' interest to keep down the rabbit population. I shall continue to enforce my responsibility for ensuring that occupiers keep down rabbits if they increase to a great extent.

Mr. Buchan

Would the Secretary of State now answer my hon. Friend's question as to whether the colleges discussed the new rôle they will have to play in regard to their advisory capacity in relation to charges; and, if they were consulted, what was their attitude? Secondly, has he considered the effects this action will have on the traditional rôle of the colleges in research, teaching and advice, because he is now beginning to push colleges into a financial and administrative rôle? What is the attitude of the colleges in that respect? Having consulted the colleges, will he issue a White Paper so that this whole sorry business can be discussed in full?

Mr. Campbell

It is not a sorry business. Discussions have taken place with the colleges and are continuing. Charges are a matter for further consultation with the colleges—

An Hon. Member

Will they be announced?

Mr. Campbell

I will announce the charges, but the services themselves and the manner in which this will be done are matters for consultation. I thought that since this involved a matter of principle these were all matters about which the House would wish to be informed at an early stage. This I have done.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

These are very important matters, but other ways must be found of pursuing them.