§ 30. Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Minister of State for Defence how the proportion of the gross national produce devoted to defence he intends for 1975 compares with the 3 per cent. planned by France for that year; and, approximately, what saving in millions of £ sterling his reduction to 3 per cent. would mean on the basis of the United Kingdom's present gross national product.
§ Lord BalnielThe level of defence expenditure for 1975 has not yet been decided. When it is, the decision will be based on the needs of defence and the national economy and not on arbitrary proportions of the gross national product or comparisons with countries whose circumstances are different from our own.
§ Mr. AllaunIs the hon. Gentleman aware that, if it remains at roughly 5½ per cent., expert statisticians—[Laughter.]—the highest statistical advice provided by the House of Commons—say that this would mean more than £950 million saving a year for this country? Is he aware of public opinion, as shown by public opinion polls, supporting the idea that this should be saved for other and better things?
§ Lord BalnielI do not care what expert statisticians might say on his subject. What I do know is that public opinion and the Government are absolutely determined that defence shall be a high element in the expenditure of this country, and we are determined to play our part in preserving the freedom of the Western world.
§ Sir Harmar NichollsIs not the reason that the French have kept down their figure to that mentioned that they have concentrated on nuclear weapons and that they sell their conventional weapons—say, to South Africa? Does not the hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun) object to this country doing either of those things?
§ Mr. AllaunWe do have nuclear weapons.
§ Lord BalnielIt would be wrong for me to comment on the proportion of the 253 gross national product which other Governments spend on their defence programmes, but certainly the points which my hon. Friend makes are relevant.
§ Mr. George ThomsonIs the hon. Gentleman aware that, after all his fine words at the Box a moment ago, and all the finer words of his colleagues before the General Election, the Government are to spend a proportion of our economic resources on defence which is almost exactly the same as was spent by the Labour Party?
§ Lord BalnielWhat I am aware of is that the defence Services were becoming increasingly worried about the defence programmes of the previous Administration and that they have widely welcomed the decisions of Her Majesty's Government.
§ Mr. ThomsonMay I press the Minister on this? Is he further aware, in the light of his last remarks, that the Government are trying to take credit for the fact that they are willing to spend less on what they regarded as the long-term defence projections of this side of the House?
§ Lord BalnielWe are spending on our defence what we consider is appropriate, and we are spending it a great deal better than did the previous Administration.