HC Deb 24 February 1971 vol 812 cc555-9
14. Mr. Douglas

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will publish estimates of the percentage of housing subsidies which will be applied to the private and public sector of housing in Scotland following his discussions with local authority associations on housing finance.

Mr. Gordon Campbell

I have already announced our policies and stated that discussions with local authority representatives are proceeding. I shall be able to provide more information after these discussions have been completed.

Mr. Douglas

Would the Secretary of State admit that the total expenditure envisaged in the White Paper on Public Expenditure to 1974–75 indicates a falling off in capital expenditure on housing in Scotland, and will he admit, therefore, that the direct result of Government policy, no matter how much he tries to cook the books, is less local authority and public sector housing in Scotland?

Mr. Campbell

No, because if the hon. Gentleman looks at his hon. Friend's Question No. 18 he will see that there is to be an increase, at constant prices—

Mr. Ross

Oh, come on.

Mr. Campbell

—and, as the hon. Gentleman knows, the working party is examining proposals at the moment and it hopes to report next month to my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Development.

Mr. John Smith

Would the right hon. Gentleman comment on suggestions which are rife in Scotland that it is the policy of the Government by 1976–77 to eliminate all rate contributions to council rents and all Exchequer subsidies? Will he deny that this is the policy of his Government?

Mr. Campbell

There has been no statement about reducing Exchequer subsidy. Countless times in this House I have stated that the intention is to retain the amount, at constant prices, but to redirect it to where it can do the most good. As regards rates, I have also pointed out that it is definitely our intention to remove the burden now on Scottish ratepayers, who are contributing 35 per cent.—no less—of the costs of council housing.

15. Mr. Eadie

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many meetings he has had with local government associations regarding future housing finance; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Gordon Campbell

I have nothing to add to the reply I gave the hon. Member on 13th January.—[Vol. 809, c. 36.]

Mr. Eadie

But is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he has managed to breed a great deal of uncertainty about the future of new homes in Scotland? Is he aware, further, that the only certainty he seems to have bred is that there will be increased rents in the future?

Mr. Campbell

We have stated that we intend to bring in rent rebate schemes which, for the first time, will cover the whole public sector and will also extend into the private sector. With proper rent rebate schemes and the advice of the Brownlie Committee, which has just reported upon them, it will be possible to finance housing properly in Scotland and to reduce the unbearable burden on Scottish ratepayers.

Mr. Clark Hutchison

If we are unwise enough to sign the Treaty of Rome there will be, as my right hon. Friend knows, free movement of labour. Can he tell me what effect that would have on housing finance in Scotland and the number of houses?

Mr. Campbell

My hon. Friend has raised a very much wider question. I can assure him that I shall look to him for advice about these matters when—if they do—they have some bearing on our housing problems.

18. Mr. William Hamilton

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland why public expenditure on housing will increase from £225.2 million in 1969–70 to an estimate of £230 million in 1974–75; and what is the anticipated average rent increase per year for public authority housing on which these estimates have been made.

Mr. Gordon Campbell

Estimates of public expenditure on housing in 1970–71 and 1974–75 are given in the White Paper on Public Expenditure published last month. The composition of this expenditure from 1972–73 onwards will depend on the outcome of the discussions which I am having with the local authority associations on the reform of housing finance.

Mr. Hamilton

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether this expenditure will result in more houses? This is what we want. Will he further say whether the Government's aim is to increase rents by not less than 10s. a week each year up to 1974–75, as was said in a circular in his Department a few months ago? Will he be honest with the people of Scotland and tell them that it is the Government's intention to increase rents substantially and regularly up to 1974–75?

Mr. Campbell

On the first point, it is our intention to provide more homes in the places where they are needed. On the second point, I have made it clear that rents will be raised by reasonable steps each year. The amounts await the result of the discussions which we are having with the local authority associations.

Mr. Mackintosh

The right hon. Gentleman was unable to answer my earlier supplementary question whether he expects house building to increase and what ideas he has for increasing it. He has now said that he will build more homes in places where they are needed. What proposals has he to increase or to alter the present downward trend in housing starts?

Mr. Campbell

The hon. Gentleman has misquoted me. I said that the intention was to "provide more homes", the point being to provide homes by repairing and retaining those that are falling into decay and to improve housing which would otherwise fall below the tolerable standards, in accordance with the Act passed by the last Government, and also by building new houses. I must emphasise that to take the view that the provision of homes depends entirely on new house building and not on other methods is to over-simplify in a misleading way the problem before the Government.

Dr. Dickson Mabon

Is the Secretary of State aware that we on this side of the House do not accept, and nor should he, the proposition that house improvements mean less new house building? The two methods are not mutually exclusive, as we demonstrated. Does not the Secretary of State agree, from his own figures, despite the Artful Dodger's earlier answers which avoided the questions, that the house-building programme is falling? It is clear from this Question and this answer that the house-building programme is steadily falling to less than 30,000 a year.

Mr. Campbell

It is for the right hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) to explain on his side why the starts between 1968 and 1969 fell by nearly 5,000—that is when the house-building programme started to fall—and by 3,000 in the following year. He should accept that, besides maintaining a house-building programme, particularly by encouraging the private sector which can add so much to the public sector, the provision of extra homes in the places where they are needed is now the requirement for any Government of Scotland.

Mr. Ross

Is the Secretary of State aware that during the last four years there have been record completions of houses both in the public sector and in the private sector? What we want to know from the right hon. Gentleman is what are his targets—or is he afraid to state them?

Mr. Campbell

No, I have made it perfectly clear that I have no intention of setting targets. For the right hon. Gentleman to talk about targets, having missed his own last year by over 5,000, is incredible.