HC Deb 23 February 1971 vol 812 cc391-415
Mr. McNamara

I beg to move Amendment No. 857, in page 81, line 5, leave out 'No court other than the Industrial Court' and insert: 'Only the Industrial Arbitration Board'. I intend to be brief, because there are more important Clauses, but it is important that the Committee should appreciate the sort of hypocrisy which surrounds the adaptation of the phrase "Industrial Court" to this new name. An honourable and respected title is being stolen from the present Industrial Court and put on this evil creature which the Government have created.

The Industrial Court established by the 1919 Act has an honourable tradition. It has worked well and is respected on all sides of industry. It has reached conclusions, and it is a voluntary body. None of its decisions has been compulsory, but, the parties, because they went to arbitration voluntarily, have felt a moral duty to accept them.

This is the sort of institution which we wanted to have when we thought of improving industrial relations—not of compelling people to accept a decision but of persuading them, by its fairness and by the knowledge and experience of those comprising the Court, that it was a just solution.

The old Industrial Court was made up of people respected on all sides of industry—distinguished employers' representatives and union representatives and independent members—who could bring to the court a wealth of industrial experience and knowledge of practical affairs which will be completely lacking in this new institution, which will be lawyer-dominated and will have on it a lawyer who will not even have to have had experience of industrial affairs.

Under Clause 88, it seems that the appointment as a judge on this Court will be second-best, because no judge will be appointed unless he so wishes. This option will not be open to those who appear before the court.

Therefore, to show the deception on the country and the Committee by the transference of this honourable name, to draw attention to the wealth of industrial experience which existed before, and because the decisions of the Industrial Court were morally persuasive, although not binding, and that is the attitude which we want in industrial relations, I hope that the Amendment will be accepted.

[Sir ROBERT GRANT-FERRIS in the Chair]

7.15 p.m.

The Solicitor-General

The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) confined his speech to a narrow point, and I wish to answer it equally narrowly. The National Industrial Relations Court is described by that name and is not expropriating the name of the Industrial Court. However, obviously, for the avoidance of any possible confusion, the functions of the Industrial Court are continuing by that body, renamed the Industrial Arbitration Board.

As the hon. Gentleman said, that has been its function. It is an arbitral court. That function will remain, and, more important, the functions of the Industrial Arbitration Board will be more extensive, because it will have the important role of securing that employers recognise unions when they have been obliged to recognise them. It will have the power of determining as an arbitration body what terms the employer ought to accept if he refuses to recognise. So all the good work of the Industrial Court as we knew it will be continued.

The National Industrial Relations Court will develop the same kind of expertise and ability for the purpose of determining disputes, rather than arbitrating them, and will develop as a new authoritative structure alongside, but not in replacement of, the former Industrial Court. I therefore invite the Committee to conclude that there is no necessity to accept the Amendment.

Mrs. Castle

Of course all the good work of the Industrial Court as we knew it will continue in the Industrial Arbitration Board. The point which we are trying to make is that the good name of the old Industrial Court is being filched by the Government for the bad work of the National Industrial Relations Court. By using this name, by borrowing this term, the Government are hoping to carry over into the new court the kudos, the association with fair play and balanced representation, which attaches to the existing Industrial Court.

At no time have we had any explanation why the position of the N.I.R.C. has been changed from that of the existing court, not only in respect of its President, who we know will now be a High Court judge, thus changing the whole character of the court, but also in respect of the members who are drawn from what is supposed to be both sides of industry. There is a remarkable contrast here between the constitution of the Industrial Court and that of the new National Industrial Relations Court.

Why have the Government moved away from the definitions of the present Industrial Court, which lay down that it shall consist of persons to be appointed by the Minister of Labour, some of whom shall be independent, some representing employers and some representing workmen—

Division No. 187.] AYES [7.21 p.m.
Albu, Austen Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Bidwell, Sydney Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)
Allen Scholefield Bishop, E. S. Cant, R. B.
Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis) Blenkinsop, Arthur Carmichael, Neil
Armstrong, Ernest Booth, Albert Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)
Ashley, Jack Bradley, Tom Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)
Ashton, Joe Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.) Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara
Atkinson, Norman Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) Clark, David (Colne Valley)
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury) Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)
Barnett, Joel Buchan, Norman Cohen, Stanley
Beaney, Alan Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) Coleman, Donald

with, in addition, one or two women? Why has that phraseology been changed? Why are we now told that these two sides are to be nominated by the Government simply on the basis of having special knowledge or experience of industrial relations?

As a result of the constitution of the present Industrial Court, we have on the employees' panel a weighty representation of the trade union movement. We have men like Mr. Bothwell of the T.S.S.A., Lord Douglass of the Iron and Steel Confederation, Sir Sidney Ford of the N.U.M., Mr. Morton, of the Electircal Power Engineers, Mr. Robinson of the National Union of Boot and Shoe Operatives, and Lord Wright of the Amalgamated Weavers Association.

Do hon. Members believe that any trade unionist of this standing will serve on this panel of the right hon. Gentleman's Industrial Relations Court? The answer is "No", and the Government know it. It will be a travesty of a court. It will, in fact, be the complete creature of the Government, and I suggest that this is why the composition terminology has been changed.

It is because the Government know that they will not get representatives of work people of this calibre to serve on the employees' panel that they have given themselves a let-out, leaving themselves free to choose people who the Government say have special knowledge or experience of industrial relations. That might even include the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Waddington) simply because, in the Government's view, he has made one speech on this Measure and should be a member. It will be a travesty of a representative court and the country should be aware of it.

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided: Ayes 245, Noes 284.

Concannon, J. D. John, Brynmor Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)
Conlan, Bernard Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) Pavitt, Laurie
Corbet, Mrs. Freda Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred
Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.) Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.) Pendry, Tom
Crawshaw, Richard Jones, Barry (Flint, E.) Pentland, Norman
Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony Jones, Dan (Burnley) Perry, Ernest G.
Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.) Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.) Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.
Dalyell, Tam Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen) Prescott, John
Darling, Rt. Hn. George Judd, Frank Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)
Davidson, Arthur Kaufman, Gerald Probert, Arthur
Davies, Denzil (Llanelly) Kelley, Richard Rankin, John
Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) Kerr, Russell Reed, D. (Sedgefield)
Davies, S. O. (Merthyr Tydvil) Kinnock, Neil Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)
Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.) Lambie, David Rhodes, Geoffrey
Deakins, Eric Lamond, James Richard, Ivor
de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey Latham, Arthur Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Delargy, H. J. Lawson, George Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)
Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund Leadbitter, Ted Robertson, John (Paisley)
Dempsey, James Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)
Doig, Peter Leonard, Dick Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)
Dormand, J. D. Lestor, Miss Joan Roper, John
Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.) Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.) Rose, Paul B.
Douglas-Mann, Bruce Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)
Driberg, Tom Lipton, Marcus Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)
Dunn, James A. Lomas, Kenneth Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)
Dunnett, Jack Loughlin, Charles Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N 'c'tle-u-Tyne)
Eadie, Alex Lyon, Alexander W. (York) Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton,N.E.)
Edelman, Maurice Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)
Edwards, Robert (Bilston) Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson Sillars, James
Edwards, William (Merioneth) McBride, Neil Silverman, Julius
Ellis, Tom McCartney, Hugh Skinner, Dennis
English, Michael McElhone, Frank Small, William
Evans, Fred McGuire, Michael Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)
Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E. Mackenzie, Gregor Spearing, Nigel
Fisher, Mrs. Doris(B'ham,Ladywood) Mackie, John Spriggs, Leslie
Fitch, Alan (Wigan) Mackintosh, John P. Stewart, Donald (Western Isles)
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Maclennan, Robert Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)
Foley, Maurice McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) Stoddart, David (Swindon)
Foot, Michael McNamara, J. Kevin Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John
Forrester, John MacPherson, Malcolm Strang, Gavin
Fraser, John (Norwood) Mahon, Simon (Bootle) Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.
Galpern, Sir Myer Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley
Gilbert, Dr. John Marks, Kenneth Swain, Thomas
Ginsburg, David Marquand, David Taverne, Dick
Golding, John Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy Thomas,Rt.Hn.George(Cardiff,W.)
Gourlay, Harry Mayhew, Christopher Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)
Grant, George (Morpeth) Meacher, Michael Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)
Grant, John D. (Islington, E.) Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert Tinn, James
Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) Mendelson, John Tomney, Frank
Griffiths, Will (Exchange) Mikardo, Ian Tuck, Raphael
Hamilton, James (Bothwell) Millan, Bruce Urwin, T. W.
Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) Miller, Dr. M. S. Varley, Eric G.
Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill) Milne, Edward (Blyth) Wainwright, Edwin
Hardy, Peter Molloy, William Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) Morgan, Elysian (Cardiganshire) Wallace, George
Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) Watkins, David
Hattersley, Roy Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) Weitzman, David
Heffer, Eric S. Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon) Wellbeloved, James
Hilton, W. S. Moyle, Roland Wells, William (Walsall, N.)
Horam, John Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)
Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas Murray, Ronald King Whitehead, Phillip
Howell, Denis (Small Heath) Ogden, Eric Whitlock, William
Huckfield, Leslie O'Halloran, Michael Willey. Rt. Hn. Frederick
Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) O'Malley, Brian Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)
Hughes, Mark (Durham) Oram, Bert Willams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)
Hughes, Roy (Newport) Orme, Stanley Williams, W. T. (Warrington)
Hunter, Adam Oswald, Thomas Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)
Irvine,Rt.Hn.SirArthur(Edge Hill) Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton) Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)
Janner, Greville Paget, R. T.
Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas Palmer, Arthur TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras.S.) Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles Mr. Joseph Harper and
Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) Parker, John (Dagenham) Mr. William Hamling
Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) Batsford, Brian Blaker, Peter
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) Bell, Ronald Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)
Astor, John Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay) Body, Richard
Atkins, Humphrey Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport) Boscawen, Robert
Awdry, Daniel Benyon W. Bossom, Sir Clive
Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone) Berry, Hn. Anthony Bowden, Andrew
Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) Biffen, John Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John
Balniel, Lord Biggs-Davison, John Brains, Bernard
Bray, Ronald Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally
Brewis, John Haselhurst, Alan Orr, Capt, L. P. S.
Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher Havers, Michael Osborn, John
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Hay, John Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)
Bruce-Gardyne, J. Hayhoe, Barney Page, Graham (Crosby)
Bryan, Paul Heseltine, Michael Page, John (Harrow, W.)
Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M) Hicks, Robert Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)
Buck, Antony Higgins, Terence L. Percival, Ian
Bullus, Sir Eric Hiley, Joseph Pike, Miss Mervyn
Butler, Adam (Bosworth) Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.) Pink, R. Bonner
Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&Nairn) Hill, James (Southampton, Test) Pounder, Rafton
Carlisle, Mark Holland, Philip Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch
Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert Holt, Miss Mary Price, David (Eastleigh)
Cary, Sir Robert Hooson, Emlyn Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.
Channon, Paul Hordern, Peter Proudfoot, Wilfred
Chapman, Sydney Hornby, Richard Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis
Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia Quennell, Miss J. M.
Chichester-Clark, R. Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate) Raison, Timothy
Churchill,W. S. Howell, David (Guildford) Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James
Clark, William (Surrey, E.) Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.) Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) Hunt, John Redmond, Robert
Clegg, Walter Hutchison, Michael Clark Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)
Cockeram, Eric Iremonger, T. L. Rees, Peter (Dover)
Cooke, Robert James, David Roes-Davies, W. R.
Coombs, Derek Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David
Cooper, A. E. Jessel, Toby Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Corfield, Rt, Hn. Frederick Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead) Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Cormack, Patrick Jopling, Michael Ridsdale, Julian
Costain, A. P. Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey
Critchley, Julian Kaberry, Sir Donald Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)
Crouch, David Kilfedder, James Roberts, Wyn (Conway)
Crowder, F. P. King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)
Curran, Charles King, Tom (Bridgwater) Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
Dalkeith, Earl of Kinsey, J. R. Rost, Peter
Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford) Kitson, Timothy Royle, Anthony
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry Knight, Mrs. Jill Russell, Sir Ronald
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack Knox, David Scott, Nicholas
Dean, Paul Lambton, Antony Scott-Hopkins, James
Digby, Simon Wingfield Lane, David Sharples, Richard
Dixon, Piers Langford-Holt, Sir John Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)
Dodds-Parker, Douglas Legge-Bourke, Sir John Shelton, William (Clapham)
Drayson, G. B. Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry Simeons, Charles
du cann, Rt. Hn. Edward Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Skeet, T. H. H.
Dykes, Hugh Lloyd, Rt.Hn.Geoffrey(Sut'nC'dfield) Smith, Dudley (W' wick&L'mington)
Eden, Sir John Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone) Soref, Harold
Edward, Nicholas (Pembroke) Longden, Gilbert Speed, Keith
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) Loveridge, John Spence, John
Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.) MacArthur, Ian Sproat, Iain
Emery, Peter McCrindle, R. A. Stainton, Keith
Farr, John McLaren, Martin Stanbrook, Ivor
Fell, Anthony Maclean, Sir Fitzroy Steel, David
Fenner, Mrs. Peggy McMaster, Stanley Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)
Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead) Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham) Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)
Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton) McNair-Wilson, Michael Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.
Fletcher-Cooke, Charles McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest) Stokes, John
Fortescue, Tim Maddan, Martin Stuttaford, Dr. Tom
Foster, Sir John Madel, David Sutcliffe, John
Fraser,Rt.Hn,Hugh(St'fford & Stone) Maginnis, John E. Tapsell, Peter
Fry, Peter Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
Galbraith, Hn. T. G. Marten, Neil Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)
Gardner, Edward Mather, Carol Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)
Gibson-Watt, David Mawby, Ray Tebbit, Norman
Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Marganet
Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) Meyer, Sir Anthony Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)
Glyn, Dr. Alan Mills, Peter (Torrington) Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)
Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)
Goodhart, Philip Miscampbell, Norman Tilney, John
Goodhew, Victor Mitchell, Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire, W) Trafford, Dr. Anthony
Gorst, John Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) Trew, Peter
Gower, Raymond Moate, Roger Tugendhat, Christopher
Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.) Molyneaux, James Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.
Gray, Hamish Money, Ernie van Straubenzee, W. R.
Green, Alan Monks, Mrs. Connie Vickers, Dame Joan
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) Montgomery, Fergus Waddington, David
Grimond, Rt. Hn, J. More, Jasper Walder, David (Clitheroe)
Grylls, Michael Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh) Walker, Rt. Hen. Peter (Worcester)
Gummer, Selwyn Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm. Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek
Gurden, Harold Mudd, David Wall, Patrick
Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley) Murton, Oscar Walters, Dennis
Hall, John (Wycombe) Nabarro, Sir Gerald Ward, Dame Irene
Hall-Davis, A. G. F. Neave, Airey Warren, Kenneth
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) Nicholls, Sir Harmar Weatherill, Bernard
Hannam, John (Exeter) Normanton, Tom Wells, John (Maidstone)
Harrison, Brian (Maldon) Nott, John White, Roger (Gravesend)
Onslow, Cranley
Wiggin, Jerry worsley, Marcus TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Wilkinson, John Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R. Mr. Paul Hawkins and
Wolrige,-Gordon, Patrick Younger, Hn. George Mr. Reginald Eyre.
Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

[Miss HARVIE ANDERSON in the Chair]

7.30 p.m.

Mr. David Stoddart (Swindon)

I beg to move Amendment No. 858, in page 81, line 11, leave out paragraph (b).

We have not had an opportunity to discuss the establishment, composition, powers or duties of the proposed new Industrial Courts, nor the procedures to be followed before those courts. Some of us believe that the new courts are designed to frighten and intimidate the working people. It is unprecedented to set up a new arm of the judiciary without proper discussion and debate, but, owing to the Government's alacrity in pressing the Bill through, that is what we have now done.

Having established a new arm of the judiciary, without proper discussion, we are now asked under Clause 115 to remove from our established and tested courts matters which have hitherto been dealt with by them, although, fortunately, relatively infrequently. There are trade unions which have agreed to enforceable contracts, and these have been enforceable in the normal courts, but it is now proposed to take that right away.

We on this side are entirely opposed to bringing the law into industrial relations. Experience shows that the best employee-employer relationships are brought about by good will, mutual respect and a desire to settle differences with the minimum harm to each party concerned. Bringing the law into industrial relations can only cause confusion and resentment. My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) was entirely right when he said earlier today that a magician was needed to interpret the Bill.

In its first leading article yesterday, The Times said: Mr. Scanlon has already got himself and other engineering union leaders into a Gilbertian situation with the Engineering Employers' Federation over one aspect of these tactics"— that is, the tactics which the unions are pursuing in regard to the Bill. For nearly two years the two sides have been negotiating a new procedure for settling disputes in the industry, which both agree is urgently needed. There is no doubt that by now the deal would have been signed were it not for the fact that the union negotiators, led by Mr. Scanlon, are insisting that a specific 'non-legally binding' clause is written in. It is a simple fact that an industry-wide agreement of this kind cannot in any circumstances become legally binding under the terms of the Industrial Relations Bill. This was one of the recommendations from industry which the Government rejected. So we have a confusion here. On the one hand, Mr. Scanlon has said one thing, and on the other, The Times, with a great deal of expertise at its back, has said another.

Clause 32 has some relationship to Clause 115 in that under Clause 115 the court will have to enforce the provisions of Clause 32 relating to collective agreements. Clause 32 appears to make absolutely clear that Mr. Scanlon is right and that a procedure agreement, once signed, is enforceable in the courts.

This is a matter of prime importance, and we must have an answer from the Solicitor-General: who is right, the trade union leader or The Times? This is the sort of confusion which we are having on the Bill, and Clause 115 only confounds it further.

Mr. Murray

May I underline what my hon. Friend is saying and point out that under Clause 32(1) every collective agreement shall be conclusively presumed to be intended by the parties to be legally enforceable unless it contains a provision to the contrary. Under subsection (3), a collective agreement is so defined as to cover a procedure agreement, and one which has been negotiated collectively. Undoubtedly, therefore, it seems that my hon. Friend's view of the meaning of the Bill is correct.

Mr. Stoddart

I am obliged to my hon. and learned Friend. Before I conclude, I wish to repeat—

Mr. Orme

May I intervene to point out that the engineering employers will not sign that agreement until after the Bill becomes law. We have heard the Solicitor-General say that it cannot be retrospective, so the engineering employers are deliberately witholding their signature because they believe that the Bill will apply.

Mr. Stoddart

Yes, that is a conclusion which the trade unions and the Committee can legitimately draw, and it underlines my point that it is vital that we have this matter clarified by the Solicitor-General today so that the negotiations may proceed on the York agreement.

We on this side are committed to a voluntary system of collective bargaining, the system which has been tried and tested and not found wanting over a long period. It will be a tragedy if our existing procedures are set aside and confined within new law and new courts. It will do infinite damage to industrial relations as we know them.

Mr. Gower

The hon. Gentleman the Member for Swindon (Mr. David Stoddart) usually speaks with studied moderation and does not use extravagant language, but he used a remarkable phrase today in objecting to paragraph (b) of the Clause. He said—I noted his words—"I believe that the new courts are designed to frighten and intimidate the working people". I hesitate to accuse the hon. Gentleman of saying something which he does not believe, but it is hard to credit that he can really believe that.

It is a strange world in which we are discussing the Bill. Throughout the country, and in the Committee itself, there is a remarkable campaign of grotesque misrepresentation of the aims of the Bill in general and of this Clause in particular.

Mr. Stoddart

I have talked to many people not only during my working life but in the past few weeks, when I have addressed trade union audiences of from 500 to 1,500, and I can say that ordinary working people are very frightened of the courts. That is my experience as a working person. They will be even more frightened of the Industrial Relations Court because it has been set up specifically to deal with them. My language, although it was perhaps a little extravagant, nevertheless represented what I truly believe that ordinary working people understand about the Bill and the Clause.

Mr. Gower

If ordinary working people have those beliefs they must be fortified considerably by the activities of those who go among them and give false descriptions of what the Bill is designed to achieve. I cannot believe that the hon. Gentleman thinks that it is dangerous. He has not said that he does, and he is now trying to tone down his original statement by saying that he has discovered that belief while moving among working people. Does he believe that the court is designed to frighten and intimidate them?

Mr. Stoddart

I never say things that I do not honestly believe, either in this chamber or anywhere else I hope that the hon. Gentleman will grant me that. Having been engaged in negotiations, I know that I as a lay negotiator would be very frightened and intimated by the thought in the background of negotiations that I could be brought before the Industrial Relations Court and my assets and family perhaps put at risk because of a false move on my part.

Mr. Gower

If that be the case, the hon. Gentleman is not objecting to the second leg of the Clause, paragraph (b). cannot believe that he will have any misgivings about that in particular, because it would depend entirely on the free choice of the parties in coming to a collective agreement. As he pointed out, they may decide voluntarily to make an agreement binding, or they may elect to make it not binding. Obviously, if the parties to an agreement are to elect to make it binding there will be pretty hard bargaining on both sides and big concessions by one party or the other. In other words, if the parties elect to make an agreement binding and subject to this procedure, there will be a considerable concession by one of the parties.

The serious nature of the matter arises from our domestic economic problem, which is to fulfil our engagements in the markets of the world. We read today of the reaction of British Ford—[Interruption.]—an hon. Member groaned. British Ford has advised the parent American company not to invest heavily here on a proposed undertaking, but possibly to site it in another country. That shows how vital it is that we should have better machinery to make collective agreements worth while. That is the point—not to make them cruel or intolerable but to make them worth while to both parties. It is no use having worth while agreements if there is no machinery for enforcement.

Mr. Orme

The hon. Gentleman made a passing reference to the Ford dispute. As the proposed new factory that we have heard so much about would not be completed and in operation until after the Bill came into effect, does not the hon. Gentleman think, from what the British Ford management has said, that the Bill obviously will play no part but will worsen the situation?

Mr. Gower

I do not need to make any connection between the two. The only thing that the Ford matter reveals is the chaotic state of our industrial relations in some parts of industry—not all. For a country so dependent on export industries even part of our industry may be vital in this connection.

It is not worth while having a beneficial agreement unless there is machinery to enforce it. That is why the second part of the Clause is very important if we are to have the sort of improvements that I sincerely hope the majority of people on both sides desire. We do not believe that the Bill or the Court is designed to frighten and intimidate people. They are, we hope, designed to fortify our law and to help—only help, because it cannot be done by this alone—to create something better than we have seen in recent years.

7.45 p.m.

The Solicitor-General

My hon. Friend the Member for Barry (Mr. Gower) has underlined the justification and motivation for the paragraph which is now being criticised. The Clause is designed to ensure that collective agreements which the parties wish to have enforceable can be enforced at the wish of either party to the agreement. It is not to be overlooked that the high probability is that the parties which will be most anxious to secure the assistance of the court will be the trade unions. In almost every country the overwhelming majority of cases brought before tribunals and courts are those brought by trade unions to establish, assert and have enforced the provisions they have had enshrined in procedure agreements for the protection of themselves and their members when something goes wrong.

I hope that the simple message put forward by the hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. David Stoddart), denouncing the very idea of bringing law into industrial relations, will not attract notice, attention or support. The one thing that cannot be asserted, despite what the hon. Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) said, is that our present voluntary system of industrial relations has "not been found wanting". The letter in today's issue of The Times from the British Ford Motor Company—

Mr. Orme

Ford has no confidence in the hon. and learned Gentleman's Bill.

The Solicitor-General

The hon. Gentleman has made his point once, and I will deal with it. The letter in today's issue of The Times from the managing director of the British Ford Motor Company is directed to the declining state of British industrial relations. The managing director sets out the figures as a result of which he says that Ford had to advise the American parent company as it did. It is that declining state that has led Governments of all parties and almost everyone concerned with the future of our country to conclude that something needs to be done, and that is what we are trying to do.

Mr. Loughlin

Surely the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) is quite clear? The company has taken a decision not to build a factory that cannot be completed until after the operation of the Bill. The company is American and has had full experience of legislation like this. Therefore, it is an indictment of the Bill that the decision was taken.

The Solicitor-General

That was an astonishingly naïve and very sad intervention. We have not claimed for the Bill that we are producing something which will be instant or miraculous or complete in its effect. Rome was not built in a day, and the sadly declining condition of our industrial relations will not be remedied or reversed in a day or in a month or in a year. We know that it will be a long haul to get things right. The one thing I am challenging is the bland and complacent proposition that our present system has not been found wanting. It is as one of the remedies for the situation that this paragraph stands in the Clause. It is not a frightening or intimidating provision. If it were deleted, the power to give rulings and enforce collective agreements would revert to the ordinary courts instead of remaining with the specially designed sophisticated National Industrial Relations Court to which it is now going.

Mr. Harold Walker

I hope that the hon. and learned Gentleman is going to reply to the important point about the statement in The Times yesterday. The first leader said: It is a simple fact that an industry-wide agreement of this kind cannot, in any circumstances, become legally binding under the terms of the Industrial Relations Bill. Has The Times got it right or wrong?

The Solicitor-General

I am coming to that. An agreement made now, before the Bill comes into force, is not affected by the Bill. The presumptions contained in Clause 32 about intended enforceability or non-enforceability do not affect them. [Interruption.] I do not know whether hon. Members opposite are interested in my answers.

Mr. Arthur Lewis (West Ham, North)

I am interested. I was saying that I have been in the Chamber long enough to have heard five hon. and learned Gentlemen giving five different legal opinions, each of them claiming to be right. That is why I was telling my hon. Friends that I could not say that I was going to accept what the hon. and learned Gentleman is now saying as being right. So many different legal opinions are being offered to us.

The Solicitor-General

I have been asked a number of questions and I will answer as best I can.

The Bill makes no difference to any agreements negotiated and concluded now. The presumptions in Clause 32 have no effect in relation to them. In regard to the present state of the law, under Section 4 of the 1871 Act a collective agreement signed between an employers' association and trade unions is not capable of being enforced now. Such an agreement, if it were arrived at now, would not be capable of having legal force because the law does not recognise that such a thing can have legal force. When the Bill is passed and Section 4 of the 1871 Act is repealed, an agreement between a trade union or federation of unions and an employers' association will attract the presumptions of Clause 32.

If the parties decided that they wanted it to be legally binding or decided not to exclude the presumptions, then it would be legally binding on the parties. The agreement of the parties, as Clause 32 makes clear, means agreement between an employers' association and a trade union or a federation of trade unions, so The Times had it wrong up to that point. But The Times had it right in that a nationwide or industry-wide agreement cannot be the subject of selective enforceability. Under the provisions of Clause 35 onwards, or by voluntary agreement, the matter could be made binding, which it could not be until after the Bill is through. But selectively enforceable agreements can only be made enforceable unit by unit by unit. That is the present position.

Mr. Orme

Then the hon. and learned Gentleman can say to the engineering employers that they are waiting in vain and that they might as well sign a new engineering industry agreement if they have any interest in the good industrial relations which the hon. and learned Gentleman purports to support.

The Solicitor-General

It would not be right for me, without more detailed knowledge of the postures of the parties concerned, to proffer advice on what they should do. What I have said about the existing state of the law is clear. Nothing will presumptively attach to an agreement which is concluded now. Section 4 of the 1871 Act is still in being to stop it being binding in that way.

I commend this subsection to the Committee on the basis that it will be to the benefit of both sides in any agreement they decide to make binding and ensure that the agreement will be considered and determined and enforced for either side before the National Industrial Relations Court, with its special expertise in the subject.

Mr. Heifer

I shall not keep the Committee long but I want to get this position clarified. Not only did The Times make this statement. Mr. Vincent Hanna, in the Sunday Times two weeks ago, made the same point. I thought that there was probably nothing in it, and I dismissed it when Mr. Hanna said it. But when The Times repeated the statement yesterday, we became somewhat worried.

When the Solicitor-General talks in terms of selective enforceability, what precisely does he mean? Does he mean that, if the national agreement has a clause stating that it shall not be enforceable, then it cannot be enforceable anywhere in the country except in localities where, as often happens, various regional modifications are made? Does it mean that the agreement will not be enforceable unless a Clause is inserted in the localities as well? This point must be cleared up.

I have one comment to make on the speech of the hon. Member for Barry (Mr. Gower). He said that throughout the country there is grotesque misrepresentation of the Bill. I have noticed that, in the past few days, hon. Members opposite have become increasingly defensive about the Bill. That is because the truth about the Bill is now getting across to the people. Hon. Members accuse us of grotesquely misrepresenting the Bill but the truth of the matter is that the people are now beginning to understand precisely what the Bill is all about. It also means that many employers who were previously quite happy to go along with the Bill are realising that it is not the panacea for industrial relations.

Sir Harmar Nicholls (Peterborough)

I will give the hon. Gentleman an example of grotesque exaggeration. I attended a protest meeting. They allowed me to have the opening speech and then I listened to speeches by trade union leaders. They explained in detail and with great emotion that the new court would be presided over by a bewigged lawyer and no one else. They knew when they said it that there would be two assessors at the side of the judge—men with real understanding of the people. Was not that a grotesque misrepresentation?

Mr. Heffer

There may well be an individual trade union official who has not properly understood the Bill, but the fact is that the T.U.C. has issued a very important kit to all trade union officials which explains in detail and without any misrepresentation precisely what the Bill is about. It is quite clear in that kit that the High Court judge who will preside will have assessors with him on the panel. It is not right for the hon. Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls) to make statements of that kind, because it is not misrepresentation.

Mr. David Stoddart

The hon. Member for Peterborough said that the trade union leaders were misrepresenting the situation by saying that a High Court judge would preside over the Industrial Relations Court, but surely within the terms of the Bill that is correct.

8.0 p.m.

Mr. Heffer

There will be a High Court judge, but the hon. Member for Peterborough was attacking the officials for not saying that there would also be two assessors. The fact is that the major decision or advice will come from a High Court judge, and anyone with experience of the law knows that.

I did not want to mention Fords, but the issue has been raised. Hon. Members ought not to introduce extraneous matters, but now that the issue has been raised, I must say that there is a contrary point of view. No one will deny that Fords have a good industrial relations setup. Hon. Members may say that there are so many strikes a year, but all industrial relations experts will agree that the set-up there is extremely good. The problem with Fords is that they were affected by the Pilkington dispute in particular. That may be said to prove the whole case, but in fact Pilkingtons have had one strike in about 40 years.

Fords' decision was taken long before this dispute. It was probably made public now because of the dispute, and to give the impression that it was the result of the strike. It was probably part of the campaign against the present strike which in my opinion is perfectly legitimate and justified.

Mr. James A. Dunn (Liverpool, Kirkdale)

My hon. Friend may recall that we have sufficient evidence from Halewood to show that work on engine parts and construction was being transferred to Germany and we were afraid that this decision would be taken.

Mr. Heffer

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. He and I were on deputations to Ministers in the Labour Government on this subject of work being transferred from Halewood to German factories. Shop stewards came to the House to lobby their local Members, shop stewards not only from Halewood, but other parts of Fords' set-up. It is important to get this decision into perspective.

Captain Walter Elliot (Carshalton)


Mr. Heffer

I will not give way. I am constantly doing so. I think that I give way too much and I do not have a chance to make a speech without being interrupted. Interruptions hold up busines

Division No. 188.] AYES [8.04 p.m.
Albu, Austen Eadie, Alex Lamond, James
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Edelman, Maurice Latham, Arthur
Allen, Scholefield Edwards, Robert (Bilston) Lawson, George
Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis) Edwards, William (Merioneth) Leadbitter, Ted
Armstrong, Ernest Ellis, Tom Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Ashley, Jack English, Michael Leonard, Dick
Ashton, Joe Evans, Fred Lestor, Miss Joan
Atkinson, Norman Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E. Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Fisher, Mrs.Doris(B'ham,Ladywood) Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Barnett, Joel Fitch, Alan (Wigan)' Lipton, Marcus
Beaney, Alan Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Lomas, Kenneth
Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Foley, Maurice Loughlin, Charles
Bidwell, Sydney Foot, Michael Lyon, Alexander W. (York)
Bishop, E. S. Ford, Ben Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)
Blenkinsop, Arthur Forrester, John Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson
Boardman, H. (Leigh) Fraser, John (Norwood) McBride, Neil
Booth, Albert Freeson, Reginald McCartney, Hugh
Bradley Tom Galpern, Sir Myer McGuire, Michael
Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.) Gilbert, Dr. John Mackenzie, Gregor
Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) Ginsburg, David Mackie, John
Brown,Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury) Golding, John Mackintosh, John P.
Buchan, Norman Gourlay, Harry Maclennan, Robert
Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) Grant, George (Morpeth) McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)
Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James Grant, John D. (Islington, E.) McNamara, J. Kevin
Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.) Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) MacPherson, Malcolm
Cant, R. B. Griffiths, Will (Exchange) Mahon, Simon (Bootle)
Carmichael, Neil Hamilton, James (Bothwell) Mallalieu,J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E)
Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield) Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) Marks, Kenneth
Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles) Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill) Marquand, David
Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara Hardy, Peter Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy
Clark, David (Colne Valley) Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) Mayhew, Christopher
Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.) Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith Meacher, Michael
Cohen, Stanley Hattersley, Roy Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Coleman, Donald Heffer, Eric S. Mendelson, John
Concannon, J. D. Hilton, W. S. Mikardo, Ian
Conlan, Bernard Horam, John Millan, Bruce
Corbet, Mrs. Freda Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas Miller, Dr. M. S.
Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.) Howell, Denis (Small Heath) Milne, Edward (Blyth)
Crawshaw, Richard Huckfield, Leslie Molloy, William
Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)
Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard Hughes, Mark (Durham) Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)
Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.) Hughes, Roy (Newport) Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)
Dalyell, Tam Hunter, Adam Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)
Darling, Rt. Hn. George Irvine,Rt.Hn.SirArthur(Edge Hill) Moyle, Roland
Davidson, Arthur Janner, Greville Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Davies, Denzil (Llanelly) Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas Murray, Ronald King
Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) Jeger, Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S) Ogden, Eric
Davies, S. O. (Merthyr Tydvil) Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) O'Halloran, Michael
Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.) John, Brynmor O'Malley, Brian
Deakins, Eric Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) Orme, Bert
Delargy, H. J. Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) Orme, Stanley
Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.) Oswald, Thomas
Dempsey, James Jones, Barry (Flint, E.) Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)
Doig, Peter Jones, Dan (Burnley) Paget, R. T.
Dormand, J. D. Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen) Palmer, Arthur
Douglas Dick (Stirlingshire, E.) Judd, Frank Parker, John (Dagenham)
Douglas-Mann, Bruce Kaufman, Gerald Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)
Driberg, Tom Kelley, Richard Pavitt, Laurie
Duffy, A. E. P. Kerr, Russell Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred
Dunn, James A. Kinnock Neil Pendry, Tom
Dunnett, Jack Lamble, David Pentland, Norman

and we are operating under a guillotine and there are many more important Amendments.

The case for the Amendment has been adequately made by my hon. Friend the Member for Swindon (Mr. David Stoddart) and I hope that the Committee will support it.

Question put, That the Amendment be made:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 250, Noes 283.

Perry, Ernest G. Sillars, James Urwin, T. W.
Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg. Silverman, Julius Varley, Eric G.
Prescott, John Skinner, Dennis Wainwright, Edwin
Price, J. T. (Westhoughton) Small, William Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Probert, Arthur Smith, John (Larnarkshire, N.) Wallace, George
Rankin, John Spearing, Nigel Watkins, David
Reed, D. (Sedgefield) Spriggs, Leslie Weitzman, David
Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.) Stallard, A. W. Wellbeloved, James
Rhodes, Geoffrey Stewart, Donald (Western Isles) Wells, William (Walsall, N.)
Richard, Ivor Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham) White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)
Roberts, Albert (Normanton) Stoddart, David (Swindon) Whitehead, Philip
Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon) Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John Whitlock, William
Robertson, John (Paisley) Strang, Gavin Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor) Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)
Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees) Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)
Roper, John Swain, Thomas Williams, W. T. (Warrington)
Rose, Paul B. Taverne, Dick Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)
Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock) Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.) Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)
Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne) Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)
Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney) Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)
Short,Rt.Hn. Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne) Tinn, James TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton,N.E.) Tomney, Frank Mr. William Hamling and
Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich) Tuck, Raphael Mr. Joseph Harper.
Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) Crowder, F. P. Hayhoe, Barney
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) Curran, Charles Heseltine, Michael
Astor, John Dalkeith, Earl of Hicks, Robert
Atkins, Humphrey Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford) Higgins, Terence L.
Awdry, Daniel d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry Hiley, Joseph
Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone) d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)
Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) Dean, Paul Hill, James (Southampton, Test)
Balniel, Lord Digby, Simon Wingfield Holland, Philip
Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony Dixon, Piers Holt, Miss Mary
Batsford, Brian Dodds-Parker, Douglas Hooson, Emlyn
Bell, Ronald Drayson, G. B. Hordern, Peter
Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay) du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward Hornby, Richard
Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport) Dykes, Hugh Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia
Benyon, W. Eden, Sir John Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)
Berry, Hn. Anthony Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) Howell, David
Biffen, John Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)
Biggs-Davison, John Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.) Hunt, John
Blaker, Peter Emery, Peter Hutchison, Michael Clark
Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) Eyre, Reginald Iremonger, T. L.
Body, Richard Farr, John James, David
Boscawen, Robert Fell, Anthony Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)
Bossom, Sir Clive Fenner, Mrs. Peggy Jessel, Toby
Bowden, Andrew Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead) Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)
Braine, Bernard Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton) Jopling, Michael
Bray, Ronald Fletcher-Cooke, Charles Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith
Brewis, John Fortescue, Tim Kaberry, Sir Donald
Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone) Kellett, Mrs. Elaine
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Fry, Peter Kershaw, Anthony
Bruce-Gardyne, J. Galbraith, Hn. T. G. Kilfedder, James
Bryan, Paul Gardner, Edward King, Eveleyn (Dorset, S.)
Buchanan-Smith,Alick(Angus,N & M) Gibson-Watt, David King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Buck, Antony Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) Kinsey, J. R.
Bullus, Sir Eric Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) Kirk, Peter
Butler, Adam (Bosworth) Glyn, Dr. Alan Kitson, Timothy
Campbell,Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&Nairn) Goodhart, Philip Knight, Mrs. Jill
Carlisle, Mark Goodhew, Victor Knox, David
Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert Gorst, John Lambton, Antony
Cary, Sir Robert Gower, Raymond Lane, David
Channon, Paul Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.) Langford-Holt, Sir John
Chapman, Sydney Gray, Hamish Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry
Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher Green, Alan Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
Chichester-Clark, R. Grieve, Percy Lloyd,Rt.Hn.Geoffrey(Sut'nC'dfield)
Churchill, W. S. Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)
Clark, William (Surrey, E.) Grylls, Michael Longden, Gilbert
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) Gummer, Selwyn Loveridge, John
Clegg, Walter Gurden, Harold MacArthur, Ian
Cockeram, Eric Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley) McCrindle, R. A.
Cooke, Robert Hall, John (Wycombe) Maclean, Sir Fitzroy
Coombs, Derek Hall-Davis, A. G. F. McMaster, Stanley
Cooper, A. E. Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)
Cordle, John Hannam, John (Exeter) McNair-Wilson, Michael
Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick Harrison, Brian (Maldon) McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)
Cormack, Patrick Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere Maddan, Martin
Costain, A. P. Haselhurst, Alan Maginnis, John E.
Critchley, Julian Havers, Michael Marten, Neil
Crouch, David Hawkins, Paul Mather, Carol
Hay, John Maude, Angus
Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald Proudfoot, Wilfred Sutcliffe, John
Mawby, Ray Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis Tapsell, Peter
Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. Quennell, Miss J. M. Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
Meyer, Sir Anthony Raison, Timothy Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)
Mills, Peter (Torrington) Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)
Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter Tebbit, Norman
Miscampbell, Norman Redmond, Robert Temple, John M.
Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W) Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.) Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret
Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) Rees, Peter (Dover) Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)
Moate, Roger Rees-Davies, W. R. Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)
Molyneaux, James Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)
Money, Ernie Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon Trafford, Dr. Anthony
Monks, Mrs. Connie Ridley, Hn. Nicholas Trew, Peter
Montgomery, Fergus Ridsdale, Julian Tugendhat, Christopher
More, Jasper Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.
Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh) Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.) van Straubenzee, W. R.
Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm. Roberts, Wyn (Conway) Vickers, Dame Joan
Mudd, David Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) Waddington, David
Murton, Oscar Rost, Peter Walder, David (Clitheroe)
Nabarro, Sir Gerald Royle, Anthony Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)
Neave, Airey Russell, Sir Ronald Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek
Nicholl, Sir Harmar Scott, Nicholas Wall, Patrick
Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael Scott-Hopkins, James Walters, Dennis
Normanton, Tom Sharples, Richard Ward, Dame Irene
Nott, John Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) Warren, Kenneth
Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally Shelton, William (Clapham) Weatherill, Bernard
Orr, Capt. L. P. S. Simeons, Charles Wells, John (Maidstone)
Osborn, John Skeet, T. H. H. White, Roger (Gravesend)
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.) Smith, Dudley (W'wick&L'mington) Wiggin, Jerry
Page, Graham (Crosby) Soref, Harold Wilkinson, John
Page, John (Harrow, W.) Spence, John Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick
Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.) Sproat, Iain Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher
Percival, Ian Stainton, Keith Worsley, Marcus
Pike, Miss Mervyn Stanbrook, Ivor Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.
Pink, R. Bonner Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper) Younger, Hn. George
Pounder, Rafton Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W,)
Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Price, David (Eastleigh) Stokes, John Mr. Hugh Rossi and
Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L. Stuttaford, Dr. Tom Mr. Keith Speed.

Question put, That the Clause stand part of the Bill:—

Division No. 189.] AYES [8.14 p.m.
Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) Cary, Sir Robert Eyre, Reginald
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) Channon, Paul Farr, John
Astor, John Chapman, Sydney Fell, Anthony
Atkins, Humphrey Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher Fenner, Mrs. Peggy
Awdry, Daniel Chichester-Clark, R. Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)
Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone) Churchill, W. S. Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)
Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) Clark, William (Surrey, E.) Fortescue, Tim
Balniel, Lord Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)
Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony Clegg, Walter Fry, Peter
Batsford, Brian Cockeram, Eric Galbraith, Hn. T. G.
Bell, Ronald Cooke, Robert Gardner, Edward
Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay) Coombs, Derek Gibson-Watt, David
Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport) Cooper, A. E. Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)
Benyon, W. Cordle, John Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)
Berry, Hn. Anthony Gorfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick Glyn, Dr. Alan
Biffen, John Cormack, Patrick Godber, Rt. Hn, J. B.
Biggs-Davison, John Costain, A. P. Goodhart, Philip
Blaker, Peter Critchley, Julian Goodhew, Victor
Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) Crouch, David Gorst, John
Body, Richard Crowder, F. P. Gower, Raymond
Boscawen, Robert Curran, Charles Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)
Bossom, Sir Clive Dalkeith, Earl of Gray, Hamish
Bowden, Andrew Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knnteford) Green, Alan
Braine, Bernard d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry Grieve, Percy
Bray, Ronald d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)
Brewis, John Dean, Paul Grylls, Michael
Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher Digby, Simon Wingfield Gummer, Selwyn
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Dixon, Piers Gurden, Harold
Bruce-Gardyne, J. Dodds-Parker, Douglas Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)
Bryan, Paul Drayson, G. B. Hall, John (Wycombe)
Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M) du Cann. Rt. Hn. Edward Hall-Davis, A. G. F.
Buck, Antony Dykes, Hugh Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Bullus, Sir Eric Eden, Sir John Hannam, John (Exeter)
Butler, Adam (Bosworth) Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) Harrison, Brian (Maldon)
Campbell,Rt. Hn.G.(Moray&Nairn) Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere
Carlisle, Mark Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.) Haselhurst, Alan
Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert Emery, Peter Havers, Michael

The Committee divided: Ayes 282, Noes 247.

Hawkins, Paul Maude, Argus Royle, Anthony
Hay, John Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald Russell, Sir Ronald
Hayhoe, Barney Mawby, Ray Scott, Nicholas
Heseltine, Michael Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. Scott-Hopkins, James
Hicks, Robert Meyer, Sir Anthony Sharpies, Richard
Higgins, Terence L. Mills, Peter (Torrington) Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)
Hiley, Joseph Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) Shelton, William (Clapham)
Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.) Miscampbell, Norman Simeons, Charles
Hill, James (Southampton, Test) Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W) Skeet, T. H. H.
Holland, Philip Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)
Holt, Miss Mary Moate, Roger Soref, Harold
Hooson, Emlyn Molyneaux, James Spence, John
Hordern, Peter Money, Ernie Sproat, Iain
Hornby, Richard Monks, Mrs. Connie Stainton, Keith
Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia Montgomery, Fergus Stanbrook, Ivor
Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate) More, Jasper Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)
Howell, David (Guildford) Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh) Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.) Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm. Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.
Hunt, John Mudd, David Stokes, John
Hutchison, Michael Clark Murton, Oscar Stuttaford, Dr. Tom
Iremonger, T. L. Nabarro, Sir Gerald Sutcliffe, John
James, David Neave, Airey Tapsell, Peter
Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) Nicholls, Sir Harmar Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
Jessel, Toby Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)
Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead) Nott, John Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)
Jopling, Michael Onslow, Cranley Tebbit, Norman
Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith Oppenhelm, Mrs. Sally Temple, John M.
Kaberry, Sir Donald Orr, Capt, L. P. S. Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret
Kellett, Mrs. Elaine Osborn, John Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)
Kershaw, Anthony Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.) Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)
Kilfedder, James Page, Graham (Crosby) Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)
King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) Page, John (Harrow, W.) Trafford, Dr. Anthony
King, Tom (Bridgwater) Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.) Trew, Peter
Kinsey, J. R. Percival, Ian Tugendhat, Christopher
Kirk, Peter Pike, Miss Mervyn Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.
Kitson, Timothy Pink, R. Bonner van Straubenzee, W. R.
Knight, Mrs. Jill Pounder, Rafton Vickers, Dame Joan
Knox, David Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch Waddington, David
Lambton, Antony Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L. Walder, David (Clitheroe)
Lane, David Proudfoot, Wilfred Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)
Langford-Holt, Sir John Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek
Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry Quennell, Miss J. M. Walters, Dennis
Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Raison, Timothy Ward, Dame Irene
Lloyd,Rt.Hn.Geoffrey (Sut'nC'dfield) Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James Warren, Kenneth
Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone) Rawlinon, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter Weatherill, Bernard
Longden, Gilbert Redmond, Robert Wells, John (Maidstone)
Loveridge, John Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.) White, Roger (Gravesend)
MacArthur, Ian Rees, Peter (Dover) Wiggin, Jerry
McCrindle, R. A. Rees-Davies, W. R. Wilkinson, John
Maclean, Sir Fitzroy Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick
McMaster, Stanley Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon Woodhouse, Hn, Christopher
Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham) Ridley, Hn. Nicholas Worsley, Marcus
McNair-Wilson, Michael Ridsdale, Julian Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.
McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest) Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey Younger, Hn. George
Maddan, Martin Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)
Maginnis, John E. Roberts, Wyn (Conway) TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Marten, Neil Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) Mr. Keith Speed and
Mather, Carol Rost, Peter Mr. Hugh Rossi.
Albu, Austen Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.) Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)
Allen, Scholefield Cant, R. B. Davies, S. O. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis) Carmichael, Neil Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)
Armstrong, Ernest Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield) Deakins, Eric
Ashley, Jack Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles) Delargy, H. J.
Ashton, Joe Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund
Atkinson, Norman Clark, David (Colne Valley) Dempsey, James
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.) Doig, Peter
Barnett, Joel Cohen, Stanley Dormand, J. D.
Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Coleman, Donald Douglas, Dick (Strlingshire, E.)
Bidwell, Sydney Concannon, J. D. Douglas-Mann, Bruce
Bishop, E. S. Conlan, Bernard Driberg, Tom
Blenkinsop, Arthur Corbet, Mrs. Freda Duffy, A. E. P.
Boardman, H. (Leigh) Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.) Dunn, James A.
Booth, Albert Crawshaw, Richard Dunett, Jack
Bradley, Tom Cronin, John Eadie, Alex
Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.) Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony Edwards, Robert (Bilston)
Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard Edwards, William (Merioneth)
Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury) Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.) Ellis, Tom
Buchan, Norman Dalyell, Tam English, Michael
Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) Davidson, Arthur Evans, Fred
Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E. Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.) Rhodes, Geoffrey
Fisher, Mrs. Doris(B'ham,Ladywood) Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Richard, Ivor
Fitch, Alan (Wigan) Lipton, Marcus Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Lomas, Kenneth Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)
Foley, Maurice Loughlin, Charles Robertson, John (Paisley)
Foot, Michael Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)
Ford, Ben Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)
Forrester, John McBride, Neil Roper, John
Fraser, John (Norwood) McCartney, Hugh Rose, Paul B.
Freeson, Reginald McElhone, Frank Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)
Galpern, Sir Myer McGuire, Michael Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)
Gilbert, Dr. John Mackenzie, Gregor Short, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)
Ginsburg, David Mackie, John Short,Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne)
Golding, John Mackintosh, John P. Short, Mrs. Renée(W'hampton,N.E.)
Gourlay, Harry Maclennan, Robert Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)
Grant, George (Morpeth) McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) Sillars, James
Grant, John D. (Islington, E.) McNamara, J. Kevin Silverman, Julius
Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) MacPherson, Malcolm Skinner, Dennis
Griffiths, Will (Exchange) Mahon, Simon (Bootle) Small, William
Hamilton, James (Bothwell) Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)
Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) Marks, Kenneth Spearing, Nigel
Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill) Marquand, David Spriggs, Leslie
Hardy, Peter Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy Stallard, A. W.
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) Meacher, Michael Stewart, Donald (Western Isles)
Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)
Hattersley, Roy Mendelson, John Stoddart, David (Swindon)
Heffer, Eric S. Mikardo, Ian Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John
Hilton, W. S. Millan, Bruce Strang, Gavin
Horam, John Miller, Dr. M. S. Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.
Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas Milne, Edward (Blyth) Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley
Howell, Denis (Small Heath) Molloy, William Swain, Thomas
Huckfield, Leslie Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) Taverne, Dick
Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.)
Hughes, Mark (Durham) Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)
Hughes, Roy (Newport) Morris, Rt. Hn, John (Aberavon) Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)
Hunter, Adam Moyle, Roland Tinn, James
Irvine,Rt.Hn.SirArthur (Edge Hill) Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick Tomney, Frank
Janner, Greville Murray, Ronald King Tuck, Raphael
Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas Ogden, Eric Urwin, T. W.
Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,s.) O'Halloran, Michael Varley, Eric G.
Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) O'Malley, Brian Wainwright, Edwin
John, Brynmor Oram, Bert Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) Orme, Stanley Wallace, George
Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) Oswald, Thomas Watkins, David
Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.) Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton) Weitzman, David
Jones, Barry (Flint, E.) Paget, R. T. Wellbeloved, James
Jones, Dan (Burnley) Palmer, Arthur Wells, William (Walsall, N.)
Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.) Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)
Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen) Parker, John (Dagenham) Whitehead, Phillip
Judd, Frank Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange) Whitlock, William
Kaufman, Gerald Pavitt, Laurie Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Kelley, Richard Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)
Kerr, Russell Pendry, Tom Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)
Kinnock, Neil Pentland, Norman Williams, W. T. (Warrington)
Lambie, David Perry, Ernest G. Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)
Lamond, James Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg. Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)
Latham, Arthur Prescott, John Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)
Lawson, George Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)
Leadbitter, Ted Probert, Arthur TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick Rankin, John Mr. William Hamling and
Leonard, Dick Reed, D. (Sedgefield) Mr. Joseph Harper.
Lester, Miss Joan Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

Clause 115 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

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