§ 16. Mr. Molloyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what further developments have transpired regarding Mr. and Mrs. Clutton-Brock of Cold Comfort Farm in Rhodesia, following correspondence concerning their detention by the Rhodesian régime sent him by the hon. Member for Ealing, North.
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeMr. and Mrs. Clutton-Brock were not detained by the Rhodesian régime. Mr. Clutton-Brock was deported after being deprived of his Rhodesian citizenship, and is now in this country. Mrs. Clutton-Brock has decided to remain in Rhodesia for the time being.
§ Mr. MolloyDoes not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the actions taken by the régime against the Clutton-Brocks were deplorable, and that Cold Comfort Farm was a practical demonstration of racial harmony? I know that he is not reeponsible for Press reports, but Press reports have recently appeared to the effect that some form of negotiation is taking place between Her Majesty's Government and the illegal regime. Can the Foreign Secretary enlighten the House on that point?
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeWe should like to see a truly non-racial policy pursued in Rhodesia. If and when negotiations take place, that will be one of their purposes. I think that the experiment at Cold Comfort Farm was a successful experiment in multi-racialism.
§ Mr. Alexander W. LyonIn that case, will the right hon. Gentleman condemn the action of Rhodesia Government in depriving Mr. Clutton-Brock of his citizenship, on grounds never made clear either to him or to anyone else? Can he further say whether in the course of the negotiations now going on with Salisbury the attitude of the British Government has been made plain to the Rhodesian Government?
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeNegotiations have not begun. Prelimainary exchanges to see whether a basis for negotiation is possible have taken place. I cannot say whether negotiations will be possible.
§ Mr. FoleyCan the right hon. Gentleman indicate whether the Government have a view on the expulsion of Mr. Clutton-Brock?
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeWe think that Mr. Clutton-Brock's experiment on his farm was a good experiment in multiracial relations. Therefore, we would deplore that anybody should be deported for such reasons.
§ 18. Mr. Brocklebank-Fowlerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the circumstances in which South African armed forces and police are stationed in Rhodesia in support of the illegal régime.
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeAccording to my information, there are no members of the South African armed forces stationed in Rhodesia. The South African Government are aware of our objections to the continued presence there of their police, and we shall continue to do what we can to secure their withdrawal.
§ Mr. Brocklebank-FowlerDoes not my right hon. Friend agree that the presence of South African police in support of the illegal régime adversely affects his chances of negotiating an acceptable settlement to the Rhodesian deadlock? Can he assure the House that any supply of arms to South Africa will be conditional on the withdrawal of all South African police from Rhodesia?
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeI do not know whether negotiations with Rhodesia would be adversely affected, but I know that I have made representations to the Foreign Minister of South Africa for the withdrawal of these police.
§ Mr. HealeyCan the right hon. Gentleman tell the House what reply he has received from the South African Government to the protest that he says he has made? Is it not extraordinary that he should be proposing to supply arms to a Government which are keeping police and armed men in British territory against 25 the express will of the British Government?
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeThe right hon. Gentleman will recall that the police were there when he was Defence Secretary in a Socialist Government. The South African Government did not make any response to the requests that the right hon. Gentleman no doubt made for the withdrawal of those police. I shall continue my efforts with the South African Foreign Minister to try to get the police withdrawn. If there were a settlement with Rhodesia I would hope that there would be no need for them.
§ Mr. WallIs it not a fact that the police are in Rhodesia to check incursions from another Commonwealth country—Zambia—and that assurances have been given that they will be withdrawn when the incursions cease? Should not Her Majesty's Government be bending their endeavours to check those incursions?
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeI do not know about checking incursions; we can try to reach a settlement with Rhodesia which will remove the cause of the incursions and, therefore, the need to have South African police in Rhodesia.
§ Mr. ThorpeIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that the distinction between armed police and armed Servicemen is a somewhat academic one? There is little difference between the two. Can the right hon. Gentleman, with his knowledge of history, tell us of any occasion on which this country has supplied arms to a foreign Government whose nationals were actively supporting a rebellion against the Crown?
§ Sir Alec Douglas-HomeI do not think that I can give any such example. I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman would expect me to give an example. The fact is that we have limited power in this matter, and we shall continue to apply it to the South African Government.