European Economic Community (Hansard, 22 February 1971)

§ 3. Mr. Leonard
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a further statement 4 on the progress of the negotiations for the United Kingdom to join the European Economic Community.

§ 7. Mr. Barnes
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a further statement on the progress of the negotiations for Great Britain to join the European Economic Community.

§ The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Geoffrey Rippon)
I have nothing to add at present to what I told the House on 4th February and in the debate on the 20th and 21st January.-[Vol. 810, c. 1936–7 Vol. 809, c. 1709–1219 and 1304–1412.]

§ Mr. Leonard
I thank the Minister for that answer, as far as it goes. Would he now give urgent consideration to propagating more actively in the country the economic advantages of membership, and would he try to spell it out in much more detail than in the White Paper published by the previous Government?

§ Mr. Rippon
I assure the hon. Gentleman that we will do everything in our power to see that the public understand the great issues involved.

§ Mr. Barnes
Is the Minister aware that, despite the speech of one of my right hon. Friends last week, the only way in which the Government can get Britain into the Community is by relying upon some support from this side of the House, where there is, perhaps, more support than some may have supposed? [AN HON. MEMBER: "The hon. Gentleman is joking."] We shall see. The Minister should be very careful that he does not alienate their support. Does not he think that the Government may be forced to make up their mind about just how important getting into Europe is compared with the highly controversial domestic policies which they are following?

§ Mr. Rippon
This is a matter which commands support on both sides of the House. There are hon. Members opposite who still adhere to the views expressed by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition in his statement of 2nd May, 1967. When in opposition we gave our support to that statement, and I am sure that in changed circumstances the present Opposition will also continue to support it.

§ Mr. Lane
In view of the. increasing public interest in and appreciation of the probable advantages of joining the Common Market, will my right hon. and learned Friend seriously consider making a Ministerial broadcast in the near future on the subject of his negotiations?

§ Mr. Rippon
Quite a number of broadcasts are made from time to time both by me and by others. I hope that they will continue.

§ Mr. Jay
Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman tell the House about any major concession made so far by the the E.E.C. to the British point of view in these negotiations?

§ Mr. Rippon
Quite a number have been made on a large number of matters, as the right hon. Gentleman will see if he studies my statements. For example, we have reached very satisfactory arrangements on transitional periods, we have reached a very satisfactory arrangement for Hong Kong, and so it goes on.

§ 4. Mr. Skinner
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what consultations have now taken place in Brussels regarding the introduction of a value-added tax upon entry into the Common Market.

§ 8. Mr. Marten
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he has had with Common Market Ministers or the Commission about value-added tax in the event of Great Britain joining the Common Market.

§ Mr. Rippon
We have proposed to the Community a five-year transitional period for fiscal harmonisation. This would apply to the introduction of a value-added tax which we shall have to adopt if we join the Community.

§ Mr. Skinner
Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that many of us are finding it extremely difficult to explain the Common Market case without knowing the level of value-added tax likely to be imposed? In the absence of any specific percentage, will it be all right to adopt the Wilberforce formula and say that it is 10.9 per cent. as calculated by the Government and 15 per cent. as calculated by the workers?

§ Mr. Rippon
It would be very unwise to do that. On the value-added tax, we shall have up to 1978 to make arrangements. There is no harmonisation at present in the Community about the value-added tax. A great deal depends upon the rates to be levied.

§ Mr. Marten
Do not my right hon. and learned Friend, the Government, the Opposition and the Liberal Party agree that to surrender the freedom to arrange our own taxation is to make a significant surrender of our internal sovereignty?

§ Mr. Rippon
All these are matters which will have to be considered in detail after we join. As I have said before, a great deal depends on the rates and the matters covered. The degree of harmonisation to be expected will be a matter for discussion between all the members of the Community after our entry.

§ Mr. Heffer
Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman recognise that many right hon. and hon. Members on this side of the House who supported British entry in the past are now extremely disturbed by the sort of statement that he has just made? In the circumstances, will he understand clearly that he can no longer rely upon those right hon. and hon. Members on this side of the House, except for a few, who supported entry in the past?

§ Mr. Rippon
I understand the hon. Gentleman's position perfectly well.

§ 5. Mr. Skinner
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many civil servants are at present engaged in promoting Great Britain's entry into the Common Market.

§ Mr. Rippon
No precise figure can be given since the majority of civil servants concerned with Britain's entry into the European Communities are engaged in the formulation and execution of Her Majesty's Government's policies towards Europe as a whole.

§ Mr. Skinner
Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that one of the more important emissaries engaged in pacifying the French was reported in the Guardian on Saturday as saying that we would be paying very much higher prices for our food from the first day 7 following British entry? Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree with that statement by Mr. Soames?

§ Mr. Rippon
That does not arise out of this Question in any way.

§ Mr. Maclennan
Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that he might help in the promotion of the case if he explained in detail what he means by the Government's "reservation of their position" with regard to inshore fisheries?

§ Mr. Rippon
That does not arise from the number of civil servants engaged in these negotiations. I have made it clear that the Government have reserved their position on the fisheries regulations.

§ 9. Mr. Marten
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he now expects to be able to quantify the economic advantages for Great Britain through entry into the Common Market.

§ Mr. Rippon
Any attempt to quantify realistically the economic advantages of entry must depend upon the outcome of the negotiations. We hold to the view that our entry into the Community on reasonable terms would be in the long-term economic interests of this country.

§ Mr. Marten
Does not my right hon. and learned Friend agree that if there are any economic advantages at the end of the negotiations they must be set out very clearly as a balance sheet, and that to fall back on the statement that in the end it must be an act of faith will only disclose the transparency of the case?

§ Mr. Rippon
As far as one is able to make statistical assessments of the position in, say, 10 years' time, we will try to do so. There is always an element of judgment which must be exercised. As for the long-term advantages, I have often quoted the argument put forward by the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) that if we get only a ½ per cent. increase in our gross national product over five years as a result of joining, that will be an advantage of £1,100 million a year.
With regard to the negotiations turning on the maintenance of the balance of mutual advantages between ourselves, the 8 other applicants, and the Community in the early years, we are arguing that the burden placed upon us should not be so high as to deprive us of economic advantages in the longer run.

§ Mr. Raphael Tuck
When discussing the Common Market negotiations, the right hon. and learned Gentleman refers constantly to the transitional period. Is he yet in a position to give any estimate of what the British contribution is likely to be after the transitional period is over?

§ Mr. Rippon
A great many figures have been given both in the White Paper put forward by the previous Government and by me. I gave an indication in my statement on 16th December, and we also discussed the matter in the debate on 20th and 21st January. A great deal will depend on the size and shape of the budget at that time.

§ Mr. Blaker
Will my right hon. and learned Friend clarify what he said in the recent debate and repeated today about the consequences of an extra ½ per cent. on the growth rate? Does he mean that after five years from the date of entry the benefit will be running at the rate of an extra £1,100 million per annum, and will he go a little further and say that as the years go by the rate will accelerate after the five years have elapsed?

§ Mr. Rippon
That may very well be the case. That is what we have been discussing in the general debates which have taken place. I believe that the long-term advantages are very great, as did the previous Government when they made the application.

§ Mr. Marquand
Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that, provided that the terms are right, it should be possible to quantify the long-term benefits more precisely than they have been so far? The long-term benefits arising from access to the larger market are likely to be substantial, as are the long-term benefits arising from an increase in the rate of investment which are likely to result from them. Cannot the right hon. and learned Gentleman at least make sure that some work is done in Whitehall to quantify those benefits and produce some analysis of the results, so that the British people have a better idea of the 9 advantages than they have at the moment?

§ Mr. Rippon
A great deal of work was done on this by the previous Government, and it has been continued by the present Government. The Confederation of British Industry has indicated the way in which it thinks industry will benefit in the longer term. One has to be careful about giving precise statistical estimates of what is likely to happen in, say, 10 years' time.

§ 11. Mr. Hayhoe
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he is satisfied with the progress being made in the negotiations over British membership of the European Economic Community; and if he will make a statement.

§ Mr. Rippon
Yes. But, of course, much remains to be done if we are to succeed in breaking the back of the negotiations by the summer, and I have made this clear to the Community.

§ Mr. Hayhoe
Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that the overwhelming majority of new hon. Members on this side of the House are entirely behind him in these negotiations? Is he also aware that I believe that the majority of hon. Members of the House taken as a whole do not share the somewhat sour sentiments to which we have to listen from the perpetual pessimists-the anti. Marketeers?

§ Mr. Rippon
I appreciate what my hon. Friend has said.

§ Mr. Loughlin
Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman take the statement which has just been made and set it to music?

§ Mr. Moate
Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that my hon. Friend the Member for Heston and Isleworth (Mr. Hayhoe) was speaking entirely for himself? Many hon. Members are very much opposed to the present negotiations, and an even greater number are very much sitting on the fence and anxious about the way that the negotiations are going at present.

Mr. J. T. Price
In face of all the unanswerable questions with which the right hon. and learned Gentleman has been struggling today and on many previous 10 occasions, may I ask how long he will cherish these illusions? Far from breaking the back of these negotiations before the end of the summer, if he were-in the unlikely event-to succeed in the task on which he is now engaged, he would break the backs and hearts of the British people.

§ Mr. Rippon
I do not for a moment accept what the hon. Gentleman has said. He speaks for himself in these matters. I think that the House and the country would be well advised on many of these matters to await the outcome of some of the detailed discussions which are now going on.

§ 14. Dr. Gilbert
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he expects the official translation into English of the European Economic Community draft directive on harmonisation of company law to be ready; and if he will make a statement.

§ Mr. Rippon
The first European Economic Community directive on the harmonisation of company law issued on 19th March, 1968, has been translated unofficially and copies have been placed in the Library of the House. Two further European Economic Community directives on company law are in a draft stage and the draft Statute of the European Company is under consideration by the Council of Ministers. At this stage unofficial translation of the latter only is envisaged.

§ Dr. Gilbert
Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that some hon. Members have received representations from responsible bodies which are concerned because they cannot get texts of these draft directives? For a lot of them, the question of what is likely to happen—we understand that it is a draft directive—in matters of this kind is far more important in determining their attitude to going into the E.E.C. than questions about transitional arrangements?

§ Mr. Rippon
I shall certainly bear that point in mind. I can see the force of that observation at this stage. Hitherto, we have been accustomed only to providing the unofficial translations after directives have been made.

§ 15. Dr. Gilbert
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth 11 Affairs whether he will publish the full list of questions presented to the United Kingdom by the European Economic Community with respect to the United Kingdom's economic prospects and the future rôle of sterling, together with the answers he is giving.

§ Mr. Rippon
No. Sir. These matters are confidential.

§ Dr. Gilbert
Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that an extraordinary list of them, confidential or not. has appeared in the serious Press in this country, and that most of them appear to be highly impertinent in nature? Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman assure the House, if he will not give us the list of questions, that he will either give the questioners a very dusty answer or start asking them in turn what, for example, they think will be the effect on the French franc of a renewal of the events of May, 1968, or on the Italian lira if there is a military coup d'etat in that country?

§ Mr. Rippon
Many questions will arise for discussion in one way or another.

§ 17. Sir R. Russell
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs why he has decided in the negotiations with the European Economic Community not to seek safeguards for the primary produce of Commonwealth countries other than New Zealand and the sugar-producing and developing countries.

§ Mr. Rippon
The arrangements for Commonwealth countries have been a central and important issue in the negotiations with the Community. We have reached provisional agreement on arrangements to safeguard the interests of Commonwealth countries in Africa, the Asian Commonwealth and the dependent territories.

§ Sir R. Russell
Can my right hon. and learned Friend say why he has apparently asked for no concessions whatever for the primary produce of Australia—or, for that matter, Canada or South Africa—a question that is vital to those three countries? Will he reconsider this matter?

§ Mr. Rippon
We very much appreciate the concern expressed about developed 12 Commonwealth countries and their position. I have been to Australia, and hope soon to go to Canada—and I hope to be able to convince the Governments there that their position will be safeguarded by the transitional arrangements, which will last through to 1978.

§ Mr. Jay
Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman confirm that he has not even asked for any lasting safeguards for the countries mentioned by the hon. Member for Wembley, South (Sir R. Russell)?

§ Mr. Rippon
The developed countries of the Commonwealth are involved in many trading arrangements. I do not think that between now and 1978 any problems will arise which, within the context of these negotiations, cannot he dealt with by transitional arrangements.

§ Mr. Scott-Hopkins
Does not my right hon. and learned Friend agree that one of the best solutions of this problem might be associated status for those Commonwealth countries who wish to have it?

§ Mr. Rippon
There would be great difficulty in trying to seek associated status for developed independent Commonwealth countries. If one of them wished to seek it, it could do so directly, and the British Government would give it every help. I do not think that the question has arisen in practice.

§ 21. Mr. Turton
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has agreed the proportion of voting rights the United Kingdom would be granted in the event of entry into the European Economic Community, and whether it would operate concurrently with entry.

§ Mr. Rippon
The negotiations with the European Economic Community are directed towards securing full membership, including full voting rights to operate concurrently with entry, on terms acceptable to this country.

§ Mr. Turton
Is it not important that the Minister should negotiate to secure that the suggestion of the Prime Minister 10 days ago, that fresh institutions should be installed in place of the present ones, should be obtained by qualified majority, rather than by unanimous voting, as under the Treaty of Rome?

§ Mr. Rippon
Unanimous voting, of course, applies only where it is expressly provided for in the Treaty of Rome or has been otherwise expressly agreed. But, whatever happens, and whatever institutions there are, we would expect to have our full voting rights.

§ Mr. Shore
Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman make clear two points—first, whether or not the Six have accepted the fact that we would exercise full voting power from the day on which we signed the Rome Treaty, if we were to sign it; and, second, whether, in his view, the voting machinery of the Rome Treaty was superseded by the agreement, or disagreement, between the French and the rest of the Six in 1965? Or does he consider the voting provisions of the Rome Treaty to be still in force?

§ Mr. Rippon
Article 148 of the Treaty of Rome, which is the basic article governing voting, is, clearly, still in force. As for the Luxembourg Agreement, or disagreement, this has been subject to a number of interpretations. In practice. of course, what has happened is that where any country considers that its vital national interests are affected it has, in effect, to reserve the right to disagree.

§ Mr. Shore
On my first question, did the Six agree to the British demand that there should be full voting rights from the moment of our entry, if we were to enter?

§ Mr. Rippon
I beg the right hon. Gentleman's pardon. There has been nothing but provisional agreement so far, so I cannot say that there has been a specific agreement on this point. Certainly, it has not been raised in negotiations, and I take it for granted.

§ 22. Mr. Turton
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what special arrangements he has secured in the current negotiations with the European Econimic Community for banana imports from Jamaica and the Windward Islands.

§ Mr. Rippon
The nature of the arrangements for entry into the Communities of bananas from Caribbean sources will depend upon the availability of the alternatives in the Community's 1963 Declaration of Intent and which of 14 those alternatives the countries concerned opt for.

§ Mr. Turton
As all the other countries of the Community give strict licensing or export equota systems to their banana producers, would it not be highly discreditable if Britain gave less favourable arrangements to Jamacia and the Windward Islands?

§ Mr. Rippon
I see the force of my right hon. Friend's question. I hope to be making a statement after Question Time about my visit to the Caribbean, and will be dealing with this. The answer on bananas turns really upon the offer which the Community is prepared to make on association or alternative arrangements. Thereafter, we would expect the banana producers in our associated States and elsewhere to be given treatment no less favourable than that which the members of the Community now afford to their traditional producers.

§ 23. Sir D. Walker-Smith
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will cause to be published an addendum to the White Paper of February, 1970, on the economic consequences of entry into the European Economic Community, showing the cost to the United Kingdom of the payments under the Financial Regulations in the post-transitional phase, assuming no amendment of the regulations or of the common agricultural policy.

§ Mr. Rippon
No, Sir. It is impossible accurately to assess our contribution 10 years from now in view of the uncertainties about the levels of Community and world prices, the pattern of United Kingdom imports, the scale of our domestic production, and the size of the Community budget.

§ Sir D. Walker-Smith
is the House to understand, then, from that reply that we would have a wholly unlimited liability in the event of access? In that case, would it not be as well to spell that out in some clear form by way of an addendum to the White Paper, as suggested here?

§ Mr. Rippon
It must also be borne in mind that we shall have a wholly 15 unlimited benefit as well. It would be premature at this stage to try to produce another set of detailed statistics. Clearly, there will come a point, if the negotiations reach a sufficiently successful conclusion for the terms to be presented to Parliament, for additional information to be provided so that we can give the House and the country the best guidance we can.

§ Mr. Eadie
Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the vaguer he is in answering, the more he fans the flames of opposition to Britain's entry of the Common Market?

§ Mr. Rippon
I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's difficulty in having, to some extent, to make a judgment on these matters, but it can only be done on the best information available and the best assessment which one can make of what may happen in 10 years' time. I am sure that it would not be helpful if I made up a set of figures just to please him.

§ 24. Sir D. Walker-Smith
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will define the scope of the negotiations relating to the entry to the European Economic Community, and ensure that the future scope is wide enough to include the possibility of amendment of the common agricultural policy and of the financial regulations.

§ Mr. Rippon
Her Majesty's Government accept the common agricultural policy of the Community. We have also made it clear in the negotiations on the range of the United Kingdom contribution to the Community budget that we accept the financial system of the Community. Amendment of the common agricultural policy and of the financial regulations remain outside the scope of the present negotiations.

§ Sir D. Walker-Smith
But does it not follow from that answer that the scope of the negotiations is far too narrow to achieve a result which, in the event, can possibly comply with the test prescribed by the Prime Minister in Paris in May last year, of securing the full-hearted approval of the British people?

§ Mr. Rippon
No, Sir, I do not accept that. Nor did this House accept it when 16 the matter was debated when the Leader of the Opposition made his statement on 2nd May, 1967.

§ Mr. Molloy
In addition to the points made by the right hon. and learned Member for Hertfordshire, East (Sir D. Walker-Smith), which I believe are very important, is the Chancellor of the Duchy aware that the answers which he has given this afternoon on all these Common Market Questions are extraordinarily ambivalent and that those which are not clearly say that no decision will be taken until we are in the Common Market, and that he is advocating to the British people that they should buy a pig in a poke?

§ Mr. Rippon
If the hon. Gentleman views these matters objectively, and studies the statements made from 2nd May, 1967, onwards, including the Labour Foreign Secretary's statement in Brussels, our own statements, my statements in the House and our debate on 20th and 21st January, he will realise that these matters are being fully ventilated and that the House and the country are being fully informed of the progress of the negotiations.

§ Mr. Biffen
Arising out of the question of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, East (Sir D. Walker-Smith), is it the Chancellor's view that if the common agricultural policy is adopted the share of British food consumption supplied by the domestic farmer will increase? If that is his view, can be give a few facts and figures to help substantiate this judgment?

§ Mr. Rippon
What one expects if our negotiations are successful is that the standard of living of Western Europe, including our own, will rise considerably and that we shall all benefit, including our domestic producers.

§ 25. Mr. Deakins
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he proposes to discuss with the European Economic Council of Ministers the issue of free movement of labour, with particular reference to its effect on citizens of the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth.

§ Mr. Rippon
We accept the Community policy on free movement of labour, but expect to clarify with the 17 Community before too long the type of problem suggested by the Question.

§ Mr. Deakins
Is it not a fact that we have no real choice in this matter of acceptance of free movement of labour? Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman not aware that it will mean that Commonwealth citizens will be discriminated against in the job market in this country, including Northern Ireland, while aliens from Europe are allowed in?

§ Mr. Rippon
There are a number of questions which have caused concern and which we want to explore in some detail with the Community to ensure that the difficulties to which the hon. Gentleman refers do not arise.

§ Mr. Clark Hutchison
What sort of effect will this free movement of labour have on Scotland?

§ Mr. Rippon
I would expect it to be beneficial.

§ Mr. Pavitt
Have the Government accepted the three draft directives of 1969, which affect the free movement of doctors? If so, what effect does he think that will have on the National Health Service in that doctors from, say, Italy and this country will come into juxtaposition?

§ Mr. Rippon
As the hon. Gentleman said, they are "draft directives". We are discussing their implications with the Commission.

§ 26. Mr. Deakins
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT a list of all matters forming part of the current negotiations with the European Economic Council of Ministers, which have not yet been agreed between the United Kingdom and the European Economic Community.

§ Mr. Rippon
The main questions for negotiation were specified in the opening statement to the Communities in Luxembourg on 30th June by my right hon. Friend the then Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. I have since indicated in my regular reports to the House the matters on which agreement has been reached.

§ Mr. Deakins
Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that such a list would show a considerable num- 18 ber of controversial issues still outstanding? If Her Majesty's Government propose to deal with them in the way in which they have dealt with controversial matters so far—that is. with capitulation and not negotiation—is there not a very poor look-out for the British economy?

§ Mr. Rippon
Certainly a large number of questions, many of them important, remain to be settled. I do not accept the conclusion of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question.

§ 36. Mrs. Hart
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if the Minister for Overseas Development has been present, or proposes to be present, at any of the meetings in Brussels concerned with British negotiations to enter the Common Market.

§ Mr. Kershaw
No, Sir. But my right hon. Friend the Minister for Overseas Development keeps in close touch with the negotiations being conducted by my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, and advises him on issues affecting the development of the Third World.

§ Mrs. Hart
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that among the many aspects on which the House will wish to be very fully informed regarding the negotiations for entry is the question of the probable effects on developing countries to which at the moment we are giving a good deal of aid, particularly those in Asia? We shall wish to have the fullest information about that, and will the hon. Gentleman guarantee that it will be made available to the House by the Chancellor of the Duchy?

§ Mr. Kershaw
My right hon. and learned Friend will have heard what the right hon. Lady has said. I assure her that we have very much in mind the status and future fortunes of countries which are at this stage of development and have in the past looked to us for help.