§ Question put, That the Clause stand part of the Bill:—
§ The Committee proceeded to a Division—
§ Mr. John Fraser (Norwood) (seated and covered)On a point of order, Sir Alfred. During the Second Reading debate, I asked the Under-Secretary of State 2013 for Employed and Productivity whether legal aid would be available at the Industrial Court in respect of the matters on which we are now voting. He replied:
That is a matter which will have to be considered … I say quite frankly that I do not know the answer to that question but I will find out and tell the hon. Member. It will certainly have to be considered."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th December 1970; Vol. 808, c. 1072.]My point of order is this, Sir Alfred. Two months have passed since that reply was given, and we are now going through a process of voting on the part of the Bill dealing with the Industrial Court. Still no reply has been given to me, and no information has been given to the House. On the other hand, I understand from comments in the Press that certain assurances have been given to Conservative Members of Parliament who have raised exactly the same question, although the information has been denied to hon. Members who have taken part in the debate.Is it in order to give that kind of reply and then make no statement to the House, yet divulge information to Government back benchers? Second, if we cannot have the argument here, would it not be in order at least to have replies to the questions which have previously been raised set out in a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT, since we are denied the opportunity to debate them in the Chamber?
The Temporary ChairmanOrder. Much of what the hon. Gentleman has said is not a point of order. By a Resolution of the House we are bound to proceed as we are doing. The other matter is a point of opinion rather than a point of order.
§ Mr. Molloy (Seated and covered)Further to that point of order. The Committee must be in some dilemma, and this is a very serious issue. We are discussing something that will play an important part in the courts. It might involve people brought before them, and lawyers. The records of the House will show that it was the intention of one of Her Majesty's Ministers to make a statement to the House to clear up the point raised by my hon. Friend. If that is not done not only will the House and 2014 the whole of jurisprudence in the land have been deceived but the whole nation will have been deceived. There will be no confidence in any such law which the House passes unless a statement is made.
The Temporary ChairmanOrder. The hon. Gentleman is expressing an opinion of his. It is not for the Chair to express an opinion on any of those matters. It is not a matter for the Chair.
§ Mr. MolloyFurther to that point of order. Can you help me, Sir Alfred? If this matter, which will affect millions of people for whom we are legislating, is not a matter for the Chair, can you tell me how I can safeguard both the interests of the people and the courts and the dignity of Parliament from such abominable behaviour by one of Her Majesty's Ministers?
The Temporary ChairmanOrder. That is not a matter on which I, in my capacity of Temporary Chairman, can give the hon. Gentleman any guidance, but he is not new to the House and I am sure that he has the wit to find ways of raising these matters, about which he feels such concern.
§ Mr. MolloyFurther to that point of order. I may have the wit to pursue this matter further, Sir Alfred, and I would ask you now if you would guide me on how we should send for Mr. Speaker to assist us in deciding this issue.
The Temporary ChairmanOrder. This is a Committee of the House, and it is my duty to continue with the Committee proceedings.
§ Committee having divided:s 274, Noes 236.
§ [ Division List 181 see col. 208.]
§ Clause 103 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
§ [Sir ROBERT GRANT-FERRIS in the Chair]