HC Deb 17 February 1971 vol 811 cc1833-4
43. Mr. David Clark

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will seek powers to allow expenditure by local authorities on concessionary bus fares for retirement pensioners under the 1968 Transport Act to be eligible for rate support grant.

Mr. Eldon Griffiths

No, Sir.

Mr. Clark

Does the Minister realise that this will cause considerable concern among many smaller authorities? Does he realise that the smaller authorities are not able to introduce concessionary fares because geographically they are away from the centres of communication and therefore the bus fare subsidy has to be greater than in a truly urban area; and that, in addition, for many of the smaller authorities a penny rate will raise only £1,000?

Mr. Griffiths

This is a matter for local authorities to decide for themselves. They are spending their own money, and they can make the best judgment of the local needs of their own people.

Mr. Denis Howell

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, following the setting up of the transport authorities, and particularly the proposals for the reorganisation of local government, there is widespread concern that many pensioners who now enjoy concessionary fares might be relieved of the opportunity of using them? In his talks on the future of local government, will the hon. Gentleman ensure that people who now enjoy free or cheap travel—old-age pensioners—retain that privilege?

Mr. Griffiths

I repeat that it is for local authorities to decide what best to do with their own money for their own people.

Mr. Bob Brown

Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that countless thousands of old-age pensioners are being deprived of concessionary fares, to which they are entitled, by the parsimonious attitude of Tory councils throughout the country? Does he not think that it is high time that Whitehall Tories started to talk to town hall Tories to encourage them to give this facility to old-age pensioners?

Mr. Griffiths

The difference between the hon. Gentleman and myself is that we on this side of the House believe that local authorities should make their own judgment about the expenditure of their own money.

Mr. Biggs-Davison

While warmly supporting what my hon. Friend has just said, may I ask whether he does not feel that concessionary fares create unfairness between pensioners who can use, or wish to use, public transport and those who do not wish to use, or are unable to use, it? Is not the right course to have proper pensions?

Mr. Griffiths

I am sure that my hon. Friend's last point will be noted by my right hon. Friend who bears responsibility for pensions. I agree with him that one of the objections to the fare concession is that it is totally indiscriminate.