HC Deb 10 February 1971 vol 811 cc495-500
2. Mr. Cronin

asked the Minister of Aviation Supply if he will make a further statement on the progress of the Concorde supersonic airliner.

7. Mr. Wilkinson

asked the Minister of Aviation Supply whether he will make a statement on the progress of the Concorde flight test development programme.

10. Mr. Sheldon

asked the Minister of Aviation Supply if he will make a further statement on the Concorde aircraft.

Mr. Corfield

The two Concorde prototypes have now completed nearly 400 hours of flight testing, including tests at Concorde's cruising speed of twice the speed of sound. The results of these tests are now being assessed. About £500 million has been spent on development so far.

Mr. Cronin

Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that, bearing in mind that the Concorde is powered with Rolls-Royce engines, its commercial future has been gravely prejudiced by the Government's reluctance to renegotiate the contract to supply the Rolls-Royce engines for the Lockheed TriStar, and also by the disgraceful way in which the right hon. Gentleman himself knocked Rolls-Royce engines in his speech on Monday?

Mr. Corfield

I entirely reject the hon. Gentleman's proposition. It is thoroughly mischievous to suggest that this will happen. I am confident that the American airlines will judge Concorde on its commercial aspects. With regard to the other matter, if hon. Gentlemen will re-read the context in which I made the remark that the engine was behind, they will realise that it applied solely to time. They know that delay has destroyed the best technical advances, such as Comet, but if they like to make political capital out of a grave national disaster like this, it is up to them. I propose to give the House as honest an assessment as I can of what I believe are the prospects.

Mr. Wilkinson

Would my right hon. Friend agree that, so far from the commercial prospects being prejudiced, the flight test development so far has given the British aircraft industry every indication that it has a product which it can sell to the airlines? There have been 60 hours of supersonic speeds and six to eight hours at more than Mach 2.

Mr. Corfield

I agree that the flight tests have proved very satisfactory, and certainly the French reactions to the Rolls-Royce engine in no way confirm the fears expressed from the other side of the House.

Mr. Sheldon

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the greatest concern would be caused if the aircraft were to continue in production with insufficient orders, allowing it to trickle on neither making a profit nor producing enough to offset the money spent on it? Leaving aside the money already spent, what estimate has the Minister made of the numbers of aircraft required to be sold to break even?

Mr. Corfield

I have explained to the House and to the hon. Gentleman in particular on a number of occasions that I am having a complete review with my French colleague in March to study the commercial prospects. It is on that review and the prospects that the future depends. As for the number, the answer is approximately 100.

Mr. Adley

Will my right hon. Friend not agree that, in addition to his remarks about Concorde, its sales prospects will not be determined by whether or not the Americans or anyone else think that we are nice chaps, but by the speed with which B.O.A.C. and Air France place orders for the aeroplane? Will he continue to do all he can to encourage those companies to convert their interest into a firm order for Concorde?

Mr. Corfield

Of course, the attitude of B.O.A.C. and Air France is very important.

Mr. Benn

Is the Minister aware, with reference to the point he made in answer to the first supplementary question, that it was not only his attack upon the RB211 but his slighting reference to the 1011 compared with its competitor in the United States that has caused grave damage and made the position worse. Does he agree, too, that the credibility of Rolls-Royce has been affected and prejudiced by the decision on the RB211 and that this may affect Concorde? Does the right hon. Gentleman intend to make political representations at the highest level in New York State and in Washington on the noise question, which could be the decisive issue in the end?

Mr. Corfield

The answer to the first part of the right hon. Gentleman's supplementary question is that I made no damaging remarks about the Lockheed 1011, except to indicate that the DC10 was clearly getting more orders.

I am in very close touch on the matter of the noise level, and I saw Lord Cromer about the noise problem before he left.

11. Mr. Leslie Huckfield

asked the Minister of Aviation Supply whether he will make a statement on the reduction of lateral noise and smoke pollution in Concorde.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Aviation Supply (Mr. David Price)

It is a design objective of the Concorde programme that its engine noise on entry into service should be no greater than that of existing subsonic jet aircraft. Smoke emission is expected to be generally less than that of current large jet aircraft.

Mr. Huckfield

Will not even newer versions of current subsonic aeroplanes have to reduce their noise levels under the new regulations? Will Concorde be able to meet the new regulations?

Mr. Price

The hon. Gentleman is right about subsonic aircraft, but he knows that no regulations for supersonic aircraft have yet been proposed. Discussions have been proceeding.

Mr. Benn

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the State Assembly of New York is now having hearings through its Health Committee? Will the Government submit evidence to the committee and send a senior official or a Minister to try to satisfy the committee on the noise aspects of Concorde's operations?

Mr. Price

I should like to think about the right hon. Gentleman's proposal.

22. Mr. Adley

asked the Minister of Aviation Supply what recent discussions his Department has had with airport authorities in the United States of America concerning the operation of Concorde into and out of United States airports.

Mr. David Price

This question was most recently discussed between British and French officials and the Port of New York Authority at the end of October last year. We are continuing to keep in close touch with developments in this field.

Mr. Adley

I thank the Minister for that answer. Is he aware of the evidence which I submitted to the Department of Trade and Industry about discussions held with the City of New York authorities some six months ago on this whole question and what the attitude of the City of New York would be towards the Concorde? Will he take most seriously the suggestion made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn) on an earlier Question about the need to involve ourselves as soon as possible in direct discussions with the New York authorities on the whole question of Concorde and noise levels?

Mr. Price

Yes, Sir; I accept what my hon. Friend has said.

Mr. Benn

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that Assemblyman Stein, evidently a key figure in the New York Assembly, will arrive here this week? Will he arrange for Mr. Stein to visit Farnborough so that the presentation on noise suppression which can be given is given to him and, through him, made available to the State Assembly?

Mr. Price

We are thinking along those lines. Perhaps I might have a word with the right hon. Gentleman after Questions.

23. Mr. Adley

asked the Minister of Aviation Supply if he will make a statement on the co-ordination of his Department's activities with those of the French Government regarding the development of the Concorde programme.

Mr. Corfield

The development and production of Concorde is a joint programme, and there is very close coordination, at every level, between the work of my Department and that of the French authorities.

Mr. Adley

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply, but, again on the question of negotiations and discussions with the Americans, will he ensure that we are in a much stronger position by being associated with the French Government than we should be if we were on our own, and will he, please, ensure that the British and French Governments jointly leave the American Government in no doubt that neither of our Governments would be prepared to tolerate bogus environment arguments put up to prevent Concorde from landing at United States airports?

Mr. Corfield

These are matters for very serious consideration, but I do not think that we can dictate to the United States what we are prepared to tolerate.

Mr. Benn

But when Lord Carrington visits the United States to discuss with the Government the Rolls-Royce position, will he also raise with Mr. Volpe, Secretary of Transportation, and other Ministers the political importance to this country of not having Concorde endangered by a decision on environmental grounds?

Mr. Corfield

I have no doubt that Mr. Volpe is fully seized of these considerations, but I will pass on the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion to my right hon. and noble Friend.