HC Deb 09 February 1971 vol 811 cc428-36

11.45 p.m.

Dame Irene Ward (Tynemouth)

I beg to move Amendment No. 509: In page 31, line 40, at end add: (4) The question to be determined by the Commission and to be specified, under this section, by the Industrial Court shall include the following matters—

  1. (a) the bargaining unit, or bargaining units, which should, in the view of the Commission, be recognised by the employer, or by the two or more associated employers, and
  2. (b) the organisation of workers or the joint negotiating panel which should, in the view of the Commission, be recognised by the employer, or by the two or more associated employers, as sole bargaining agent for that bargaining unit or for each of those bargaining units.

The Chairman

I think it would be for the convenience of the Committee to take with this Amendment Amendments No. 524, in line 40, at end add: (4) The question to be specified by the Industrial Court under this section shall include the following matters for determination by the Commission—

  1. (a)the bargaining unit, or bargaining units, which should, m the view of the Commission, be recognised by the employer, or by the two or more associated employers, and
  2. (b) the organisation of workers or the joint negotiating panel which should, in the view of the Commission, be recognised by the employer, or by the two or more associated employers, as sole bargaining agent for that bargaining unit or for each of those bargaining units.

No. 510, in Clause 45, page 33, line 20, at end insert: (3) A report of the Commission under this section shall not recommend that a bargaining unit should be recognised by the employer, or by the two or more associated employers, if both professional employees and employees who are not professional employees are comprised in that bargaining unit unless it appears to the Commission—

  1. (a) that this would be in accordance with the general wishes of the professional employees comprised in that bargaining unit, and
  2. (b) that it would promote a lasting and satisfactory settlement of the question in issue in the reference.

No. 511, in line 29, at end insert: (5) In the performance of their functions under this section the Commission shall have regard to the desirability of a professional employee being represented in collective bargaining, if he so desires, by an organisation whose members are wholly professional persons or by a joint negotiating panel which includes at least one such organisation.

No. 526, in line 29, at end insert: (5) In the performance of their functions under this section the Commission shall have regard to the desirability of a professional employee being represented in collective bargaining, if he so desires, by an organisation of which all the members are professional persons or by a joint negotiating panel which includes at least one such organisation.

No. 527, in line 30, leave out 'subsection (3)' and insert: 'subsection (4) and subsection (5)'.

No. 656, in line 39, at end insert: (c) whether it represents workers who by virtue of their profession or the nature of their employment have such special responsibility towards the public or their employers that they ought to be separately represented.

No. 513, in Clause 48, page 36, line 9, after 'unit', insert: 'or in the particular section of it to which the applicant belongs'.

No. 514, in Clause 49, page 36, line 40, at end insert: (4) In the performance of their functions under this section the Commission shall have regard to the desirability of a professional employee being represented in collective bargaining, if he so desires, by an organisation whose members are wholly professional persons or by a joint negotiating panel which includes at least one such organisation.

No. 529, in page 36, line 40, at end insert: (4) In the performance of their functions under this section the Commission shall have regard to the desirability of a professional employee being represented in collective bargaining, if he so desires, by an organisation of which all the members are professional persons or by a joint negotiating panel which includes at least one such organisation.

No. 518, in Clause 148, page 103, line 12, at end insert: 'Professional person' means a person—

  1. (a) who holds a professional qualification related to the work in which he is engaged being a qualification conferred by a professional qualifying body, and
  2. (b) who is required to abide by rules of professional conduct placing upon him a particular responsibility for the safeguard of the public interest
and shall include a worker who is performing related work under the supervision of a professional person with the intention of obtaining such professional qualification. 'Professional qualifying body' means any body which confers qualifications recognising the possession by the holder of knowledge of an advanced type in a field of science or learning customarily acquired by a prolonged course of intellectual instruction and study in or with an institution of higher learning or a hospital as distinguished from a general academic education or from an apprenticeship or training in the performance of routine mental, manual or physical processes. 'Professional employee' means a professional person who is a worker.

No. 533, in page 103, line 12, at end insert: 'Professional person' means a person—

  1. (a) who holds a professional qualification related to the work in which he is engaged being a qualification conferred by a professional qualifying body, and
  2. (b) who is required to abide by rules of professional conduct placing upon him a particular responsibility for the safeguard of the public interest
and shall include a worker who is performing related work under the supervision of a professional person with the intention of obtaining such professional qualification. 'Professional qualifying body' means a body which confers qualifications legally or customarily necessary for engaging in occupations involving a high degree of judgment and special knowledge and which are conferred after completion of prescribed courses of intellectual disciplines and after examination. 'Professional employee' means a professional person who is a worker.

11.45 p.m.

Dame Irene Ward

I think that the Amendment is quite clear. It is in my name, but there is a large measure of support for it from my hon. Friends, and in view of the lateness of the hour all I want to know is whether the Secretary of State will accept it. As I am restraining myself from making a speech, I hope that my right hon. Friend will accept the Amendment.

Mr. R. Carr

The brevity of my hon. Friend puts me in a testing position. I cannot be quite as brief, nor can I go as far as my hon. Friend would like me to and accept these Amendments, but I hope that I can, nevertheless, say something which will be of considerable help to my hon. Friend the Member for Tyne-mouth (Dame Irene Ward), to many other of my hon. Friends, to, I hope, some hon. Gentlemen opposite, and to many people outside the House who share the views and motives which have led my hon. Friend and other hon. Members to table these Amendments.

I understand and appreciate the reason why it is felt that the agency shop and bargaining unit provisions as they stand should include some special safeguards for professionally qualified people. I have received representations on this point from a number of quarters, and I have listened carefully to them, but I do not think that it is possible for the Government to accept these Amendments in the form in which they have been put forward, because I am convinced that in this form they could jeopardise one of the fundamental aims of the Bill; namely, the need to avoid fragmentation of the bargaining structure, which is one of the problems in industry, and one which we must not aggravate.

I also have very much in mind the fact that whereas the professional workers have a problem, with which I have some sympathy, that problem arises not so much from the fact that they are professional workers, as from the fact that in the circumstances which concern them they are quite small minorities embedded in a larger majority in a working group. Therefore, as I said briefly the other night, anything we do to help here must really be something which is designed to help not only professional workers, and not primarily because they are professional workers, but to make sure that in dealing with bargaining structure, appointing bargaining units and agents, we take proper account of minorities of workers, whoever they may be, embedded in a larger group of workers of a different nature, with different interests, different purposes and functions. So we must tackle it from that point of view.

It is and must be the responsibility of the C.I.R. to determine, in the light of all the circumstances, what is likely to prove the most acceptable, satisfactory and lasting solution to disputes about the bargaining unit and the bargaining agent. Experience both in this country and certainly in North America amply confirms the conclusion that hard and fast rules or criteria make it more difficult rather than easier to resolve the wide range of problems that arise.

Therefore, I do not wish to tie the hands of the C.I.R. by writing strict criteria into the Bill; nor shall we do so. I believe that when we bring forward our code of practice we can give sensible guidance within it which can bear on this problem; but, although influential, the code of practice will be much less rigidly binding than criteria written into the Bill.

What it is essential to ensure is that, dependent as we shall be upon the wisdom, skill and foresight of the C.I.R., the C.I.R. in its composition is fully representative of people with experience of all the problems with which they have to deal. Although it would be wrong to set up the C.I.R. or any similar body on a strictly representative basis, and I do not want to have on the C.I.R. people who are there as members for this interest of that interest—that would be wrong—nevertheless it is important to ensure that the C.I.R. includes amongst its membership those who are experienced in all these matters.

It will be my intention to ensure that the C.I.R. contains amongst its membership one or more members who will be fully conversant with the needs, problems, ethics, functions and all the rest, of professional workers of all kinds.

I am also prepared to consider very carefully the possibility of moving on Report an Amendment—not to this Clause, but to Clause 45—which could offer some further guidance to the C.I.R. in deciding the scope of appropriate bargaining units. Clause 45(4) specifies two matters which the C.I.R. must in particular consider in determining matters concerning the recognition of an organisation of workers or a joint panel as sole bargaining agent. My Amendment would require the C.I.R., in determining whether to make such a recommendation, also to have regard to the minorities which may be in a bargaining unit which it is considering and to the community of interests of different descriptions of employees, the nature of the work which these different groups perform, their training, experience and responsibilities, as well as any other matters which the C.I.R. might consider relevant. If when we reach Clause 45 we give that direction to the C.I.R. and we ensure that the C.I.R. is fully representative in its membership, I believe that, without tying its hands, we can give the guidance to the C.I.R. which is necessary to ensure that the interests, not only of professional workers, although of course including professional workers, but also of other minority groups of workers can be properly regarded within the determination of a bargaining unit and the recommendations which the C.I.R. may make about bargaining agents.

Although I cannot accept these Amendments, I hope that my hon. Friend will agree that, if I were in Clause 45 to do something along the lines I have suggested and take care of the matter in the code of practice and in the membership of the C.I.R., we would in all reasonable ways be meeting the genuine needs both of professional workers and of any other minority groups of workers embedded in their bargaining units.

Mr. Ashton

The right hon. Gentleman has given a peculiar answer. I welcomed the first part of his speech when he said that he could not accept the Amendment, but it is peculiar of him to talk about Clause 45 on Report when we are going through it under the guillotine in Committee in five minutes' time. The hon. Lady the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward) put down her Amendment because of the Tyneside lock-out of my union, D.A.T.A., and the position of the United Kingdom Association of Professional Engineers.

We maintain that D.A.T.A. can recruit up to the top level of chief draughtsmen and high technicians and is perfectly able to negotiate on their behalf. For many years we have never advocated that top executives should join our union, although they have had the benefits of its negotiations in that there has never been a pay increase yet to lower management or technical grades in which the same percentage has not gone to other management grades. If we obtained 10 per cent. increase in pay, these chief draughtsmen and others also obtained 10 per cent. to maintain differentials. The maintenance of differentials is built into trade union structure and the vast majority of engineers were satisfied with that until 18 months ago, when the U.K.A.P.E. was set up.

We believe that it is a bosses' union and is financed by bosses' money. It has had a rapid rate of growth to about 30,000 members in the past 18 months. Top class executives are travelling round the country recruiting for it, and someone obviously is paying their salaries and expenses because a campaign of starting off a union through its initial stages costs money. A great deal of time, money and effort is required.

We think that this is being done for one purpose—to put it bluntly, so that U.K.A.P.E. members can act as strikebreakers, not as blacklegs during a strike because blacklegs have to belong to a union to be classed as that. The members of the U.K.A.P.E. can keep the wheels turning when the rest of the factory is on strike.

The technicians in industry have a great deal of power because they recruit up to a high level of management. Because of the nature of the job, technical work has to be put into a pipeline, so that drawings done today, for example, will often not reach the shop floor for two months. So if draughtsmen go on strike, it is possible by using the existing supply in the pipeline to keep the shop floor going for as long as two months. We therefore have to pay a high rate of strike pay of £27 10s. a week so that the men can survive, and we have to ensure that no sub-contracting takes place to another firm or ensure that there is insufficient management left in the factory to keep the place going.

The U.K.A.P.E. virtually says, "No strikes". We had representatives of the organisation visit this House about a month ago, when some of them said that they were proud that they could keep works going and that it was their public duty to maintain them while an official dispute was on. [Interruption.] We now see the difference between the two sides of the Committee. When we pointed out to these people that they were, in effect, prolonging the dispute by enabling the plant to continue with a skeleton staff, they shrugged their shoulders and said "So what?". That is their attitude—and not one that they are entitled to more money because they are professionals, since under D.A.T.A., which negotiates for everyone at a plant, they get their increases.

The U.K.A.P.E. is a bosses' union designed to break strikes. As I have said, because of the nature of the job it is necessary to keep a long pipeline going, and if there is a skeleton staff during a strike, that strike takes very much longer than necessary. That is why we refuse to work with the U.K.A.P.E. It is why D.A.T.A. was locked out at Parsons, near the constituency of the hon. Lady the Member for Tynemouth, but finall Parsons had to agree that D.A.T.A. would have sole negotiating rights.

Dame Irene Ward rose——

Mr. Ashton

I am sorry, but the hon. Lady moved the Amendment. I would give way if we did not have the guillotine. The Government imposed it. We did not. Of necessity, we had to exert pressure on Parsons and suffer a lockout and a cost to our funds of about £200,000 to try to solve the problem and work for the sole negotiating rights we believed necessary. If this Amendment and a series of others were made, it would create chaos. It would not improve industrial relations or stop threatened disputes but would lead to more lock-out than there have been in the past.

It being Twelve o'clock, The CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to Standing Order No. 43 (Business Committee) and the Orders [25th and 27th January], to put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair.

The Chairman

The Question is—

Dame Irene Ward rose

The Chairman

Order.

Dame Irene Ward rose

Hon. Members

Sit down.

The Chairman

The Question is, That the Amendment be made.

Dame Irene Ward

In view of what has been said from both sides of the Committee, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

The Chairman

The Question is, That the Amendment be made.

Amendment negatived.

The CHAIRMAN then proceeded to put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the Business to be concluded at Twelve o'clock.

Question put, That the Clause stand part of the Bill:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 289, Noes 258.

[For Division List 138 see col. 469.]

Clause 43 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 44 to 46 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

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