HC Deb 20 December 1971 vol 828 cc1100-1
19. Mr. George Thomas

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what action he has taken in connection with the Merthyr borough corporation's decision to continue supplying free school milk to children aged seven years of age.

Mr. Peter Thomas

I personally met representatives of the Council last month and pointed out to them the serious implications of breaking the law. On 2nd December, in the absence of any indication that the Council would reconsider their attitude, I agreed to the application made to me last September by the District Auditor for a direction under Section 236(1) of the Local Government Act for an extraordinary audit to be held of the accounts relating to the provision of milk in schools.

Mr. George Thomas

Is the Secretary of State aware that this is another example of where Whitehall does not know best? Is he aware that the whole population of Merthyr are united in resentment at the Government's insisting that their young children should not have milk in the schools in the morning, and is he prepared to pursue his policy to the end till he makes Merthyr councillors go to gaol in defence of this principle?

Mr. Peter Thomas

With respect, I am surprised at the right lion. Gentleman, because this matter has been debated in this House and the Act has been passed. The central issue of this case is not whether or not the Act is acceptable to everyone; it is the observance of law. When legislation, however controversial it may have been, is passed into the law of the land we are entitled, in a responsible democracy, to expect that responsible individual citizens and all public authorities will observe it, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will use his influence to emphasise that.

Mr. George Thomas

The right hon. and learned Gentleman may know at once that my influence will be in the opposite direction. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Yes, it will. Is he aware that what the Government have done is an affront to natural justice? Will he answer my question? Is he prepared to see these councillors go to gaol rather than deny our children free milk?

Hon. Members

Answer.

Mr. Peter Thomas

I am doubly surprised at the right hon. Gentleman. [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] It is a sadly irresponsible and dangerous thing if elected councillors charged with important areas of our system of government deliberately defy the law. If I may say so, it is a deplorably irresponsible and dangerous thing for Members of the Mother of Parliaments, in particular Privy Councillors, to give any encouragement to deliberate defiance of the law.

Mr. George Thomas

I am prepared to go to gaol myself.

Mr. Fred Evans

Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman realise that the people of Wales are completely united? Is he further aware of the Early Day Motion on the Paper in my name, No. 96, calling for the repeal or amendment of the Act? Is he further aware that the slur he has cast on the very fine councillors of Merthyr, who are completely responsible men, will be deeply resented in Wales? Is he further aware that they regard this as a moral issue and that he should bring pressure to bear on the Secretary of State for Education and Science to see that the Act is amended or repealed and that if he does not the whole of Wales will be united behind the Merthyr borough councillors in resistance to this attack on children?

Mr. Peter Thomas

The hon. Gentleman obviously has not got the point. It is perfectly permissible in a democracy for people to campaign against a particular law and to suggest that it should be changed, but it is a dangerous thing in a democracy such as ours if people encourage local authorities and other responsible bodies deliberately to break the law.