HC Deb 09 December 1971 vol 827 cc1499-501
Q4. Mr. Pardoe

asked the Prime Minister which Minister is responsible for co-ordinating the means test now operated by the various Government Departments.

The Prime Minister

The necessary co-ordination is already achieved through the normal interdepartmental machinery.

Mr. Pardoe

Is the Prime Minister aware that, as a result of answers to four Questions by four Government Departments last month, we now have the first comprehensive picture of the means-tested society? Together, these four Departments are administering 7 million individual means tests for 38 means-tested benefits. Does not the Prime Minister think that it is time to appoint a Select Committee and a Cabinet Minister to look at ways in which we can bring the P.A.Y.E. system and the welfare benefits together in a common onslaught on poverty through a negative income tax?

The Prime Minister

This matter is being thoroughly examined. It is a very complex problem which has been looked at by various organisations and individuals for many years. In opposition we did a great deal of work on it, and the Government machinery has been working on it for a number of years. No one has yet found a way in which a negative income tax could be operated satisfactorily to deal with the problem that the hon. Gentleman has raised. I personally have long wanted to see a rationalisation of all this. It would help administration and it would also help individuals. We have gone some way towards it. No one has yet found a completely satisfactory way of doing it.

Mr. Houghton

Is the Prime Minister aware that at one time P.A.Y.E. was thought by the Inland Revenue to be impossible? Does not he agree that where there is a will on this matter a way can be found?

The Prime Minister

I agree entirely and that is why we are persisting in this. We do not take the attitude that it is impossible. With the best advice that we can get—and technically, through computerisation, one can do more—we are trying to find a way of dealing with a wide range of different social service benefits in the context of income tax. If one limited it to one or two of the major benefits, one could operate such a system. But that would not deal with the point made by the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe) about there being 38 major means tests. In fact, I think that there are 43 altogether. We have not yet got to a situation where we can deal with them all in that way.