HC Deb 06 December 1971 vol 827 cc1087-96

10.30 p.m.

Mr. Caerwyn E. Roderick (Brecon and Radnor)

I am grateful for this opportunity to raise some matters concerning my constituency. I appreciate that they are of little interest to many hon. Members, but they are certainly of considerable interest to very many people living in mid-Wales.

It had been my intention to question certain statements made by the Secretary of State for Wales during the course of the Second Reading debate on the Local Government Bill, when he stated that he had conformed with the wishes of the local authorities concerned in the departure of certain areas from the proposed area of Powys and with the wishes of people in those parts. This is patently untrue of all areas, and certain areas have taken exception to that remark. However, I understand that I should be going beyond the rules of order if I were to pursue that subject, as it would be anticipating legislation.

None the less, in connection with this in a remote way, I feel that it is rather shameful that we should be proceeding with legislation without any indication of how such an area as Powys, as envisaged, should be financed. I hope I am not overstepping the bounds of order in talking about financial provision, because I understand that this has yet to come, and is not part of the existing legislation.

This is what makes me feel that we cannot rightly in our area comment on the proposals when we are completely in the dark about the financing of the area. The proposed area is of 1,960 square miles and contains a population of 100,000—a new county. It is obvious that this sort of area will need very large injections of central Government finance, but we are totally unaware of anything the Government propose in this direction and thus find it very difficult to comment in any real sense on the proposals.

The subject of the debate is the future of Breconshire and Radnorshire, and if I talk about the present it will be a useful guide to the future. We had news to-day that a firm in Brynmawr on the southern tip of my constituency proposed to lay off 200 men. This is the kind of tale we have heard far too often of late. It has become a familiar story in South Wales in recent months. We have areas in the southern fringe of Breconshire—Ystradgynlais, Vaynor, Penderyn—suffering the same fate, with unemployment figures well above the national average. So much for the oft-repeated contention of the present Prime Minister before the election that he would reduce unemployment.

If we move further north we come to the mid-Wales region—an area where we have what we call the growth towns. In this context, I should like to quote what the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Wales said in the Welsh Grand Committee on 28th April of this year. He then said: …I propose to continue with the growth towns policy adopted by the previous Government. But I recognise that as these small towns expand they run into financial problems connected with the provision of essential services. These involve expenditures on the rates which are not recouped by additional rateable values until development takes place some years later. I am considering what additional assistance I can give to the growth towns in this respect. I hope to discuss these problems of mid-Wales and our policies in the area with the mid-Wales Industrial Development Association in the next few weeks. The Association has done great work for mid-Wales and I look forward to a fruitful discussion with them about future measures. He also said: I do not think that we should extend the scope of the Development Corporation"— the Development Corporation for Newtown— to other new towns. I want the Development Corporation, which has not in fact fully developed itself, to make a good job of Newtown. By doing that it can be an example and talisman for mid-Wales as a whole. The Government's policy certainly is to stimulate growth in the other towns in mid-Wales."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Welsh Grand Committee. 28th April, 1971; c. 13.] I ask the House to note the date. Those were fine words indeed. But we are now waiting for some action to follow them.

What yardstick is the Secretary of State using to measure the success of Newtown? He says that he is waiting to see how successful the Development Corporation is before he sets about doing the same thing in the other towns that have been named. When will he decide? What measure will he use to decide that it has been a successful venture?

The right hon. Gentleman admitted in that debate that he will pursue the growth towns policy and that the small towns cannot go it alone. But when does he intend to assist them? Growth is all-important, not simply to provide more jobs but in other respects. If we are to keep a balanced community in the area we must provide a variety of jobs, a variety which has been absent but which has been coming into the area in recent years. Depopulation, although slowing down, is still taking place. Unless we can provide more work of a varied and technical nature, we shall not keep our young people in the area.

The Secretary of State has said before that the towns are too small to provide essential services. The lack of those services is a further reason why young people leave the area.

The public transport situation is very serious. The Minister will be well aware of that as he lives in the area. It is easy for him and for me to travel through the constituency in our cars. But let us not ignore the fact that although Radnorshire has the highest density of cars per head of population in Wales there are still far too many people who rely on others for transport. Public transport is virtually non-existent in the county.

I know that the Minister can say that the Government are continuing the policy of subsidising bus services, and I applaud that policy. The time may well come when we have to consider even further support. He will also say that the Government are contemplating legislation to ease licensing of small vehicles. But I want him to appreciate that the growth of these small towns also plays a part in the matter, because as we get increasing population there we are likely to have increasing use of transport services.

Further, I should like an assurance from the hon. Gentleman tonight that the assistance the Government give to the central Wales line will be continued. It is due for review very shortly, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman can tell us something about it tonight.

I am getting tired of receiving complaints about television reception throughout the area. This may be thought to be a trivial matter, but, allied to the other difficulties, it accelerates depopulation. The Minister can fairly claim that it is not his responsibility, but what pressure is his right hon. Friend exerting on the appropriate Department to improve the situation? I should like him to think of this problem in the context of the whole rural area. It is a further cause for dissatisfaction among young and old people. I receive many complaints about the installation of telephones. People find it difficult to get a telephone installed in a reasonable time. Some of the concerns which have come to the area have experienced difficulty. Technical representatives who need telephones in their homes have to wait months for this service.

These services are even more essential in a rural community than they are in an urban community. We have recently experienced the closure of gas showrooms. Again, this may appear to the outsider to be a trivial matter and it may be said that alternative facilities are made available. But each difficulty seems to be the last straw and makes life more difficult for people living in the area. It seems that they are last in the queue for any service. I hear outsiders say what a beautiful part of the country this is and that it is well worth visiting. They say that it is a pleasant area to go to for holidays. I ask them to realise that without the resident population the area would die. We are therefore anxious that the existence of the resident population should be made a little easier.

Under the proposed Health Service reorganisation the area will be without its own district general hospital, thus forcing people to travel long distances for specialised medical services. I know that a district general hospital cannot be provided for every area, but this is a further difficulty for people living in the area.

I welcome the principle of the suggested Welsh National Water Development Authority, but I express some disquiet about the region as decided in advance of the Crowther Report. The proposal anticipates that report in proposing the setting up of a regional authority. I note the absence of democratic control of this authority. Many of us in Wales hope that, as a result of the Crowther Report, there will be an elected council for the region. We believe that authorities such as the proposed water development authority should come within democratic control. I am concerned that the interests of the areas which supply water are not safeguarded because they will not be adequately represented on the authority.

Two parts of my constituency—the Dulas and Senni Valleys—have been under a cloud in recent years. I welcome the Minister's pronouncement which has relieved the minds of people living in the Dulas Valley. I should welcome a statement from him which relieves the minds of people in the Senni Valley. Despite the Report of the Central Advisory Water Committee, a water authority is going after the Senni Valley. This is another matter for concern for us—that areas and communities such as these will not have an adequate voice on the new Welsh National Water Authority. I beg the Minister to make a reassuring statement tonight.

The difficulties of the people I represent will not be made easier by the creation of larger units of local government. I suspect that they will be made more difficult. I am not asking the Minister to forget the Government's legislation on local government reform. I am asking him to tell us that action will be taken in connection with growth towns and to say that the Government will change the direction of their policies as they affect the southern end of my constituency, which suffers from high unemployment. I would not pretend that this is such a problem in mid-Wales. It is a greater question in the southern end, where unemployment is very serious, and we need a change in Government policy. An expansionist policy is needed, and a return to a policy similar to the regional policies of the previous Government. I do not know what success the Minister will have in persuading his right hon. and learned Friend to pursue this, but I think that he must look at this matter very seriously. A growth town policy is so important to mid-Wales. I want the right hon. and learned Gentleman to follow up his words with action.

10.45 p.m.

The Minister of State, Welsh Office (Mr. David Gibson-Watt)

The hon. Gentleman the Member for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Roderick), having been fortunate in catching your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, has made a speech which has touched on many aspects of an area which he and I both know very well. I happen to be one of his constituents. The only quarrel I have with him is that he has raised so great a number of points that in the short time at my disposal tonight I shall not be able to deal with them all adequately.

Let me tell him here and now that the questions of telephones and television, important indeed as they are, must go to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications.

As to the question of local government reform, although my answer will be short I must come back pretty strongly at him and say, when he refers to the remarks of my right hon. and learned Friend as being patently untrue, that the hon. Member is unwise to choose words of that kind. I will explain to him why. He is raising the whole question of local government reform, and is questioning the decision about the parts of the southern end of Breconshire which, under the Government's proposals, are to be added to the new county of mid-Glamorgan and Gwent. He opposes this change. He says it flouts local opinion and that the Government have been selective in their treatment of the southern end of the county. In my view the proposals are fair and reasonable and have a large measure of local support.

The first point to be made is that the recommendation to detach south Breconshire was made by the Local Government Commission for Wales in draft proposals in 1961. It said: From Ystradgynlais in the west to Cefn Coed in the east there is a substantial fringe of Breconshire south of the Brecknock Beacons mountain barrier. The communities concerned are semi-industrial and appear to us to have more in common with their neighbours in Glamorgan than with the rest of Breconshire. Indeed, the hon. Gentleman himself referred to them tonight as separate communities. He referred, on the one hand, to the southern industrial fringe, and, on the other, to what he called the mid-Wales area.

In the final draft proposals in 1963 the Commission left Monmouthshire out of their proposed Powys county, and accordingly extended the same principle to the boundary with Monmouthshire and a proposed boundary on the watershed of the Beacons and the Black Mountains. Under that plan much more of Breconshire would have been taken out of Powys than under our proposals. The whole of Crickhowell Rural District, all of Vaynor and Penderyn Rural District and also Ystradgynlais Rural District—and Brynmawr—would have been taken away, in addition to other areas.

The Commission also stated: We believe that we have adopted the only really satisfactory way of defining the southern boundary of the Mid-Wales county by following as closely as possible the watersheds of the two mountain ranges—the Beacons and the Black Mountains.

Mr. Roderick

My point was that it was not the unanimous wish of all the local authorities concerned to leave Powys, in that Crickhowell Rural District is to be split under the proposals. This is opposed both by the rural district council and the parish council and by the populace generally. The Secretary of State mentioned the people, but there has not been a referendum.

Mr. Gibson-Watt

I was coming to that part in my speech. The Brynmawr Urban District Council strongly supports the inclusion of its district in Gwent. Vaynor Parish Council has said that it wishes to join East Glamorgan. I understand that, on the casting vote of the chairman, Penderyn has decided to support our proposal. Certainly Vaynor and Penderyn Rural District Council accept the Government's proposals, although they would have preferred that Ystradfellte Parish should also be in Glamorgan so that their district was transferred. That leaves Llanelly Parish Council who wish to stay with the rest of Crickhowell Rural District Council and join Powys. But the parish council admits that one of the wards of the parish has a great affinity with Brynmawr and that in that ward there is more sympathy with our proposal.

I wish to touch further now on the question of the industrial prospects in that area. What I have just said entirely refutes what the hon. Member said about my right hon. Friend's statement.

The hon. Member mentioned a number of other matters in mid-Wales, including the closure of the mid-Wales line. Under the previous Conservative Administration, after the Beeching Report, this was a line which was spared. Under a previous Labour Government, all the station buildings on that line were knocked down before the Secretary of State decided to stay their hand. I cannot say anything further about the future of this line tonight, but I fully acknowledge the anxiety of the hon. Gentleman and his constituency.

The hon. Member admitted that, with a population as thin on the ground as that of the mid-Wales area, no administration could honestly say that a district general hospital could be built on the lines we generally understand as a district general hospital. But, although he did not mention it, the hon. Gentleman will be aware that there have been certain additions to hospitals—two lately, and the position is far from stagnant.

On the question of water supply, the hon. Gentleman commended my right hon. Friend's decision over the Dulas Valley, but left us a little in the air about the future of the Senni Valley. As I have said several times, the position is absolutely clear. The previous Labour Government gave the Usk River Authority power to take borings in the Senni Valley. When my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment, and I on his behalf, made announcements, we made it clear that the future of the borings in the Senni Valley remained for a period under the discretion of the Usk River Authority with this power given by the previous Secretary of State to them. We made it clear that, should the authority ask for a revocation of that order, this matter would be considered by my right hon. Friend. I hope that what I have said will make it clear that the matter now rests not with the Welsh Office but with the Usk River Authority.

Let me now deal with some of the matters of industry and employment with which hon. Gentleman and I are concerned. I do not wish to minimise the economic problems of the area, particularly on a day like this with the announcement of the closure of the R.C.A. factory in Brynmawr and the loss of 200 jobs. This is extremely serious and concerns us all. We were all surprised and bitterly disappointed to hear of the decision and I understand it stems from the company's withdrawal from general purpose computer manufacture. I do not wish to say more at this stage, but my right hon. and learned Friend is making arrangements to discuss this matter with senior representatives of the company as a matter of urgency. In advance of that, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not press me further.

The Department of Employment will naturally do everything possible to find alternative work for those affected. The premises are large and modern, they are privately owned and the Department of Trade and Industry will give what assistance may be required to bring them to the notice of other firms which might be interested. We will pursue this with vigour.

The loss of 650 jobs at the Teddington factory at Cefn Coed was an additional serious blow adding to an already difficult situation in the Merthyr area. I need not go into the circumstances giving rise to the closure now, but the Department of Trade and Industry is doing all it can to find a new tenant for this large factory. Since this part of Breconshire is within the special development area the maximum range of inducements will be available to incoming industrialists. I am aware of the efforts being made by some of the former sub-contractors of Teddington to obtain defence contracts and my right hon. learned Friend and wish them well.

The immediate situation in Ystradgynlais is more hopeful. The announcement in October that Smiths Industries is taking over the Caerbont factory means that this large firm will provide 300 more jobs in that area over the next three years. Apart from that, it means that more machining work will be brought there from Essex.

A word now about the rural areas and the growth centres to which the hon. Gentleman referred. In Brecon work is proceeding on the second advance factory, and I expect this to be completed by the middle of next year. This factory was authorised soon after the letting in March this year of the first advance factory to Ontzi Ola Limited, a Spanish firm which will provide about 50 jobs in the town.

At Llandrindod Wells progress is being made and about 100 additional jobs will arise from the recently announced ex- pansion of Setten and Durward. This represents a most useful development in the office furniture manufacturing industry.

Rhayader has had a setback this year with the closure of Lusty and the consequent loss of 45 jobs. The second advance factory at Rhayader in spite of difficulties will, we hope, be proceeded with soon. As to Builth Wells the hon. Gentleman will be aware that I saw a deputation from three local councils about the projected flood alleviation scheme not many days ago. I can add nothing further except to say we are fully seized of the problem.

As to the infrastructure in these two counties there are at present 27 schemes costing between £40,000 and £245,000 in the trunk road programme. In addition two very important schemes are in the preparation pool, Brecon bypass estimated to cost £3 million and the Gilwern to Glangrwyney link, which will cost about £1 million. A good deal of work is also going on on principal roads. In Brecon the feasibility study, already completed, has I understand been accepted as a basis for development by the borough and county councils, and consultants have already been appointed for Llandrindod Wells to make a study of the town. Difficulties over determining the line of the bypass have held up planning work at Rhayader. As soon as the line has been agreed consultants will press on to complete their task.

I should like to join with the hon. Gentleman in paying tribute to the Mid-Wales Industrial Development Association. It has done great things under various Government over a long period of time and we shall continue to give it all the support we can. In dealing with these matters of mid-Wales, we shall continue to see that those areas to which the hon. Gentleman and I have referred will continue to get the attention which the Welsh Office has been giving and will continue to give.

Question put and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at Eleven o'clock.