§ Q6. Mr. McManusasked the Prime Minister whether he will ask the Secretary of State for Defence to resign.
§ The Prime MinisterNo, Sir.
§ Mr. McManusWhile attempting to make allowances for that particularly arrogant answer, may I ask whether the Prime Minister is aware that on the national television network on 16th November the Secretary of State for Defence, referring to 14 men who had been interrogated in depth, said:
but you must remember that those who were being questioned are murderers."?He spoke those words against men who cannot even raise a voice in their own defence. Will the Prime Minister explain how a man who can make such an outrageous allegation against defenceless men can retain the degree of credibility or confidence which is necessary in a high-ranking Minister of State?Is he further aware that in my constituency the Army is at the moment performing the disgusting habit of going from house to house asking the religion of certain occupants? Will he give the House his assurance that this will cease forthwith?
§ The Prime MinisterThose who are detained in Northern Ireland are detained because they are members of the I.R.A.—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—and they are, therefore, members of an organisation which uses violence and is pledged to violence—[HON. MEMBERS: "Not true."]—or they are detained because they are believed to be a danger to security. That is why they are detained, and we have set up a Committee to ensure that this matter is examined because they cannot be taken for trial. In the debate on Northern Ireland the right hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. George Thomson) used the expression "known gunmen". There is, therefore, no difference between us.
§ Mr. DuffyIf members of the Government are permitted to make judgments of this kind about men who have not yet been tried, what is the point of the Prime Minister setting up the Brown Committee?
§ The Prime MinisterThe Brown Committee is able to examine whether they should be kept in detention. In all cases where the Brown Committee has recommended that they should be released, they have been released.
§ Mr. Biggs-DavisonIf resignation is indicated is not it rather indicated for hon. Gentlemen who find a conflict between their political ideologies and the oath that they have taken as Members of this House?
§ Mr. Harold WilsonThe right hon. Gentleman will recall that some aspects of this matter were discussed in our two-day debate, and that I suggested that some of them should be the subject of all-party discussions here and in Northern Ireland. Is the Prime Minister aware that some of the anxieties here probably are due to the fact that the decision on internment was not taken by this House or a Government responsible to this House, but taken elsewhere, and that that is why we are anxious that charges should be notified to those who have been interned? If it is a fact that 14 detainees have been accused of being murderers, is not it open to them to take civil remedies against the Secretary of State for Defence by suing him for defamation?
§ The Prime MinisterThat is a matter for them and for those from whom they seek advice. I cannot give judgment on a legal matter of that kind.
On the right hon. Gentleman's other question, when I wound up the debate on Monday night I undertook that the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland and my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary would look into the right hon. Gentleman's suggestions. They are already examining some of them to see whether they could be met in the context of internment.
The reason why the action is taken by the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland is, as I have said before, that the powers lie in Northern Ireland under the Acts of 1920 and 1922. They do not rest with this Government.
§ Mr. FarrHas my right hon. Friend's attention been drawn to the murder of a constituent of mine, Private Benner, in the Republic yesterday? May I ask my right 652 hon. Friend what representations he has asked the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary to make to the Irish Government about it?
§ The Prime MinisterI have seen reports of this terrible incident. At the moment, it is being fully examined. I should not like to comment until we receive reports from Northern Ireland.
§ Mr. OrmeIs the Prime Minister aware that Lord Carrington's remarks have created a great deal of difficulty in Northern Ireland, because he has prejudged cases which have not been tried and some people who have since been released? Will the Prime Minister agree that Lord Carrington's leadership in this matter, with its emphasis on defence instead of on political action by this Government, is leading to a deterioration of the situation in Northern Ireland?
§ The Prime MinisterI know that that is the hon. Gentleman's thesis. He also knows that I cannot accept it. We pay tribute, quite rightly, to the work of our forces in Northern Ireland. It does not lie in the hon. Gentleman's mouth to criticise the Secretary of State for Defence.