HC Deb 04 August 1971 vol 822 cc1613-21

Lords Amendment: No. 79, leave out Clause 44 and insert the following new Clause— 44.—(1) If on an application under section 43 of this Act the Industrial Court is satisfied—

  1. (a) that it is not precluded by section 51(5) of this Act from entertaining the application;
  2. (b) that the employer or employers to whom the application relates, and the organisations of workers appearing to the Court to have, or to be seeking, negotiating rights in respect of the whole or part of the specified group of employees, have endeavoured to settle the questions proposed to be referred to the Commission and, for that purpose, have made adequate use of any facilities for conciliation available to them, whether in pursuance of section 43(4) of this Act or otherwise; and
  3. (c) that reference of those questions to the Commission is necessary with a view to promoting a satisfactory and lasting settlement of them,
the Industrial Court, subject to the next following subsection, shall refer those questions to the Commission. (2) The Industrial Court shall not be required to refer any questions under this section to the Commission on an application relating to a group of employees if it appears to the Court that—
  1. (a) a reference under this section relating to that group of employees or relating to a group of employees which in the opinion of the Court does not substantially differ 1614 from it, was under consideration by the Commission within the period of two years ending with the date of the application, and
  2. (b) in the circumstances a further reference on that application after so short an interval would not be justified."

The Solicitor-General (Sir Geoffrey Howe)

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Miss Harvie Anderson)

I think that it will be convenient if, with this Amendment, we take the following Lords Amendments: No. 80, in page 35, line 11, leave out "question has been referred" and insert "reference has been made".

No. 81, in line 15, leave out "question" and insert "questions in issue".

No. 82, in line 19, leave out from "after" to "and" in line 20 and insert such a reference has been made". No. 83, in line 22, leave out "question" and insert "questions in issue".

No. 85, in line 33, leave out from "employer" to end of line 36 and insert unless he is an associated employer in relation to the employer or employers to whom the reference originally related". No. 86, in page 36, line 13, leave out "a question" and insert "any questions".

No. 87, in line 15, leave out "that question" and insert "those questions".

No. 88, in line 19, leave out "on that question".

No. 89, in line 24, leave out from beginning to "and" in line 27 and insert comprised in the reference, either as originally made or as extended".

The Solicitor-General

These Amendments are all related to the same point. They are all designed to restructure Clause 44 and to make some associated Amendments to Clauses 45 and 46 in the light of Amendments made to Clause 43 by this House on Report.

Amendment No. 79 consists of replacing old Clause 44 by a new one. Amendments Nos. 80 to 83, 86 and 87 involve replacing the singular with the plural at six places in Clauses 45 and 46. Amendment No. 85 simplifies the meaning of "associated employer" in Clause 45. Amendment No. 89 does the same in Clause 46 in relation to an extended reference.

The effect of all these Amendments is to take account of the changes made in this House to Clause 43, whereby the Commission, when a question is referred to it, has greater flexibility and can deal more appropriately with a reference. The questions as originally formulated in the old Clauses 42 and 43, without Amendment, were in different forms according to whether the application was made by an employer, a union or the Secretary of State.

This House altered that so as to make the same questions arise whoever made the reference and so as to enable the Commission to investigate in all these cases both the question of the bargaining unit and the question of the bargaining agent. These changes are a necessary consequence of those previously accepted in this House to Clauses 44, 45 and 46.

Mr. Ronald King Murray (Edinburgh, Leith)

Could the Solicitor-General say whether in Amendment No. 85 the term "associated employer" has the official meaning given to the words in Clause 158(6), the definition Clause? The hon. and learned Gentleman will recollect that a specialised meaning is given to "associated employer". Is that the meaning given to it in Amendment No. 35 and, indeed, throughout the Bill?

The Solicitor-General

Yes, that is the intention.

5.0 p.m.

Mr. Heffer

As the Solicitor-General said, the object of Amendment No. 79 is to substitute new Clause No. 44 for the present Clause 44. We on these benches are in some difficulty. During the Committee stage the Government tabled certain Amendments, and, if I remember aright, those Amendments were not reached in Committee because of the operation of the guillotine. They concerned the sole bargaining agent, and at this stage I ought to reiterate that this is a principle to which we are opposed because we are opposed to the whole concept of the agency shop. I appreciate that we have discussed this matter in connection with previous Amendments; it is ground that we have already traversed, but that cannot be avoided, much as we would like to do so.

As the Solicitor-General said, new Clause 44 must be taken in conjunction with Clause 43. This proposed new Clause, which is entitled Reference to Commission on application under s.43", like the one which it replaces, precludes any application under Clause 51(5). At this stage the Clause becomes extraordinarily complicated because Clause 51(5) must be considered in association with Clauses 49 and 50. Clause 49 allows any employee in a sole bargaining agency to make an application to the Industrial Court. A trade union should not continue to represent the workers if the workers do not want it to do so, provided that, I think, two-fifths of the workers signify in writing that they support the application. By Clause 48, unless at least one-fifth of the employees have signified their support for the application, an application cannot be made.

We believe that the whole principle is wrong. We regard it as a most complicated business and, although it may tidy up the other Clause, nevertheless, we cannot support the Amendment because we oppose the whole principle. We believe that the C.I.R. should not be involved. The Industrial Court should not determine any such questions. It should exist on the basis on which it previously existed. We do not believe that this proposal would help good industrial relations. In addition, it would mean that the courts would be very much overloaded and that there would be long periods of time before issues could be solved.

My hon. Friend the Member for Norwood (Mr. John Fraser) the other day mentioned "Catch 22". The more one goes into this and discovers the cross references involved, the more complicated it becomes. In those circumstances, we shall have to oppose the Amendment.

Question put, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment:—

The House divided: Ayes 261, Noes 221.

Division No. 459.] AYES [5.5 p.m.
Adley, Robert Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) Mitchell, Lt. Col. C. (Aberdeenshire, W)
Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) Glyn, Dr. Alan Moate, Roger
Archer, Jeffrey (Louth) Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. Molyneaux, James
Atkins, Humphrey Goodhart, Philip Money, Ernle
Awdry, Daniel Goodhew, Victor Monks, Mrs. Connie
Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) Gorst, John Monro, Hector
Balniel, Lord Gower, Raymond Montgomery, Fergus
Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony Gray, Hamish More, Jasper
Batsford, Brian Green, Alan Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.
Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton Grieve, Percy Morrison, Charles (Devizes)
Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay) Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) Mudd, David
Benyon, W. Grimond, Rt. Hn. J. Murton, Oscar
Berry, Hn. Anthony Grylls, Michael Neave, Airey
Biffen, John Gummer, Selwyn Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael
Biggs-Davison, John Gurden, Harold Normanton, Tom
Blaker, Peter Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley) Nott, John
Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.) Hall, John (Wycombe) Onslow, Cranley
Body, Richard Hall-Davis, A. G. F. Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally
Boscawen, Robert Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) Orr, Capt. L. P. S.
Bossom, Sir Clive Hannam, John (Exeter) Osborn, John
Bowden, Andrew Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)
Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John Haselhurst, Alan Page, Graham (Crosby)
Braine, Bernard Hastings, Stephen Page, John (Harrow, W.)
Bray, Ronald Havers, Michael Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)
Brewis, John Hawkins, Paul Peel, John
Brinton, Sir Tatton Hayhoe, Barney Percival, Ian
Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher Hicks, Robert Pink, R. Bonner
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Higgins, Terence L. Pounder, Rafton
Bruce-Gardyne, J. Hiley, Joseph Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch
Bryan, Paul Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.) Prior, Rt, Hn. J. M. L.
Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N&M) Hill, James (Southampton, Test) Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis
Buck, Antony Holt, Miss Mary Quennell, Miss J. M.
Bullus, Sir Eric Hordern, Peter Raison, Timothy
Burden, F. A. Hornby, Richard Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter
Butler, Adam (Bosworth) Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia Redmond, Robert
Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate) Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)
Channon, Paul Howell, David (Guildford) Rees, Peter (Dover)
Chapman, Sydney Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.) Rees-Davies, W. R.
Chichester-Clark, R. Hunt, John Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David
Churchill, W. S. Hutchison, Michael Clark Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Clark, William (Surrey, E.) Iremonger, T. L. Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) James, David Ridsdale, Julian
Cockeram, Eric Jessel, Toby Roberts, Wyn (Conway)
Coombs, Derek Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead) Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)
Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick Jopling, Michael Rost, Peter
Cormack, Patrick Kaberry, Sir Donald Russell, Sir Ronald
Costain, A. P. Kellett-Bowman, Mrs. Elaine Scott, Nicholas
Critchley, Julian Kilfedder, James Scott-Hopkins, James
Crouch, David King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) Sharples, Richard
Curran, Charles Kinsey, J. R. Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)
Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford) Kirk, Peter Shelton, William (Clapham)
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry Knox, David Simeons, Charles
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen.James Lambton, Antony Sinclair, Sir George
Dean, Paul Lane, David Skeet, T. H. H.
Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. Langford-Holt, Sir John Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)
Dixon, Piers Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry Soref, Harold
Dodds-Parker, Douglas Le Marchant, Spencer Speed, Keith
Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alee Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Spence, John
Drayson, G. B. Longden, Gilbert Sproat, Iain
du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward Loveridge, John Stanbrook, Ivor
Eden, Sir John Luce, R. N. Stewart-Smith, Geoffrey (Belper)
Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) McAdden, Sir Stephen Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) MacArthur, Ian Stokes, John
Emery, Peter McCrindle, R. A. Stuttaford, Dr. Tom
Eyre, Reginald McLaren, Martin Sutcliffe, John
Farr, John Maclean, Sir Fitzroy Tapsell, Peter
Fell, Anthony McMaster, Stanley Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
Fenner, Mrs. Peggy Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham) Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N. W.)
Fidler, Michael McNair-Wilson, Michael Tebbit, Norman
Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead) McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest) Temple, John M.
Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton) Maddan, Martin Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret
Fookes, Miss Janet Madel, David Thomas, John stradling (Monmouth)
Fortescue, Tim Marten, Neil Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)
Fowler, Norman Mather, Carol Tilney, John
Fox, Marcus Maude, Angus Trafford, Dr. Anthony
Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone) Mawby, Ray Trew, Peter
Fry, Peter Tugendhat, Christopher
Galbraith, Hn. T. G. Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. Turron, Rt. Hn. Sir Robin
Gardner, Edward Meyer, Sir Anthony Vaughan, Dr. Gerard
Gibson-Watt, David Mills, Peter (Torrington) Vickers, Dame Joan
Waddington, David Wells, John (Maidstone) Woodnutt, Mark
Walder, David (Clitheroe) White, Roger (Gravesend) Worsley, Marcus
Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester) Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.
Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek Wiggin, Jerry
Wall, Patrick Wilkinson, John TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Walters, Dennis Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick Mr. Walter Clegg and
Ward, Dame Irene Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard Mr. Hugh Rossi.
Weatherill, Bernard Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher
NOES
Albu, Austen Foley, Maurice Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Foot, Michael Meacher, Michael
Allen, Scholefield Ford, Ben Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis) Forrester, John Mendelson, John
Ashley, Jack Fraser, John (Norwood) Millan, Bruce
Ashton, Joen Galpern, Sir Myer Miller, Dr. M. S.
Atkinson, Norman Garrett, W. E. Milne, Edward (Blyth)
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Gilbert, Dr. John Molloy, William
Barnes, Michael Golding, John Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)
Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C. Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)
Barnett, Joel Gourlay, Harry Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)
Beaney, Alan Grant, George (Morpeth) Movie, Roland
Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood Grant, John D. (Islington, E.) Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) Murray, Ronald King
Bidwell, Sydney Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) Ogden, Eric
Bishop, E. S. Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill) O'Halloran, Michael
Blenkinsop, Arthur Hardy, Peter O'Malley, Brian
Boardman, H. (Leigh) Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) Oram, Bert
Booth, Albert Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith Orme, Stanley
Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur Hattersley, Roy Oswald, Thomas
Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland) Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)
Bradley, Tom Heffer, Eric S. Paget, R. T.
Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) Horam, John Palmer, Arthur
Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles
Buchan, Norman Howell, Denis (Small Heath) Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)
Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) Huckfield, Leslie Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred
Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) Hughes, Mark (Durham) Pendry, Tom
Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.) Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.) Pentland, Norman
Cant, R. B. Hughes, Roy (Newport) Perry, Ernest C.
Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara Hunter, Adam Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.
Clark, David (Colne Valley) Irvine, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur (Edge Hill) Prescott, John
Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.) Janner, Greville Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)
Cohen, Stanley Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas Probert, Arthur
Coleman, Donald Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n&St. P'cras, S.) Reed, D. (Sedgefiel)
Conlan, Bernard Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)
Corbet, Mrs. Freda Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) Rhodes, Geoffrey
Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.) John, Brynmor Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Crawshaw, Richard Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caernarvon)
Cronin, John Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) Robertson, John (Paisley)
Cunningham, G. (Islington, S. W.) Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.) Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)
Dalyell, Tam Jones, Barry (Flint, E.) Roper, John
Darling, Rt. Hn. George Jones, Dan (Burnley) Rose, Paul B.
Davidson, Arthur Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.) Sandelson, Neville
Davies, Denzil (Llanelly) Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen) Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)
Davits, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.) Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)
Davies, Ifor (Gower) Judd, Frank Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton, N.E.)
Davies, S. O. (Merthyr Tydvil) Kaufman, Gerald Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)
Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.) Kelley, Richard Silverman, Julius
Davis, Terry (Bromsgrove) Kinnock, Neil Skinner, Dennis
de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey Lambie, David Small, William
Delargy, H. J. Latham, Arthur Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)
Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund Lawson, George Spearing, Nigel
Doig, Peter Leadbitter, Ted Spriggs, Leslie
Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.) Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick Stallard, A. W.
Douglas-Mann, Bruce Leonard, Dick Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)
Driberg, Tom Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Stoddart, David (Swindon)
Duffy, A. E. P. Lipton, Marcus Strang, Gavin
Dunnett, Jack Loughlin, Charles Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley
Eadie, Alex Lyon, Alexander W. (York) Thomas, Rt. Hn. George (Cardiff, W.)
Edelman, Maurice Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)
Edwards, Robert (Bilston) Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson Thomson, Rt Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)
Edwards, William (Merioneth) McBride, Neil Tinn, James
Ellis, Tom McGuire, Michael Tomney, Frank
English, Michael Mackenzie, Gregor Torney, Tom
Evans, Fred Maclennan, Robert Tuck, Raphael
Faulds, Andrew McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) Urwin, T. W.
Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E. McNamara, J. Kevin Varley, Eric G.
Fisher, Mrs. Doris (B'ham, Ladywood) Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) Wainwright, Edwin
Fitch, Alan (Wigan) Marks, Kenneth Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Fitt, Gerard (Belfast, W.) Marquand, David Wallace, George
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Marshall, Dr. Edmund Watkins, David
Weitzman, David
Whitehead, Phillip Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick Wilson, William (Coventry, S.) Mr. Ernest Armstrong and
Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin) Woof, Robert Mr. William Hamling.

Subsequent Lords Amendments agreed to.

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