HC Deb 04 August 1971 vol 822 cc1580-2
37. Mr. Neave

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what progress he is making towards implementing the recommendations of the Fulton Report in regard to the pay and career structure of the scientific classes in the Civil Service.

38. Mr. Dalyell

asked the Minister for the Civil Service when he expects to make a statement on the implementation of the recommendations of the Fulton Committee, in regard to the pay and career structure of the scientific classes of the Civil Service.

Mr. David Howell

Broad agreement has been reached between the Civil Service Department and the staff association concerned on a merger of the scientific classes up to the principal scientific officer level in accordance with a proposal in the Fulton Report. Pay scales for the new structure will be determined when the Civil Service Arbitration Tribunal has reported on the pay of the scientific grades. An announcement will be made at the appropriate time.

Mr. Neave

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Is he not aware of the anger of Government scientists at their apparent down-grading as a result of the Government's recent pay offers to other classes of civil servants? Has not the implementation of the Fulton Report been painfully slow?

Mr. Howell

I am aware of the concern which my hon. Friend mentions. The pay question is going to arbitration on 12th August and I do not think that it would be right to comment further on it. We are pressing ahead with the merger of the scientific classes and we are hoping that it will produce results.

Mr. Dalyell

At the appropriate time, would the Government consider the pay research unit's definition of comparability?

Mr. Howell

The system of fair comparisons which is operated in the pay research unit is well defined and I think that it is fair. The previous Government—and we do not quarrel with this—decided to put the scientific classes on pay research and the outcome is that with which hon. Members are familiar.

Mr. Dalyell

A jolly bad definition!

Sir H. Legge-Bourke

Would my hon. Friend bear in mind that one of the recommendations inherent in the Fulton Report was that there should be comparable promotion opportunities between various branches of the Civil Service and that what is incensing the scientific grades at the moment is the erosion of this principle? Will he remember that if the outcome of the arbitration is not satisfactory, we shall inevitably have to raise this matter after the Summer Recess?

Mr. Howell

I shall bear in mind what my hon. Friend says, but I do not think that this principle is being eroded. The Fulton proposition, that there should be equal career treatment and promotional structure, is being adhered to and supported by the Government in the implementation of the Fulton Report.

Mr. Sheldon

The hon. Gentleman has referred to the Fulton recommendations for integration between the scientific classes and the administrative classes. Is it not a fact that, as a result of this differential pay award, integration will be made rather harder than it need be? As the hon. Gentleman has been pressing ahead so well, was this not rather a pity?

Mr. Howell

I do not think that the pay award will make a difference to the integration outlined by Fulton, or to equal career treatment and promotion prospects. It is a matter of fair comparisons, and they are based on the pay research system. It is only fair that non-industrial civil servants and the scientific classes should have the same treatment in pay matters, and that is what is happening now.

Dame Irene Ward

May we be assured that the Government will be honest and just to the scientific grades? As my hon. Friend knows, there has been a great deal of trouble. I should like to know which side the Government are on and whether they have done their duty and treated the scientific workers as they ought to be treated.

Mr. Howell

I did not fully hear my hon. Friend, but if she asked whether the Government were honest and just and doing their duty, the answer is "Yes".