HC Deb 28 April 1971 vol 816 cc421-3
41. Mr. Meacher

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment by what approximate percentage he expects council rents to rise on average for a three-bedroom house as a result of his refashioning of housing subsidies.

Mr. Amery

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply to the hon. Member for Acton (Mr. Spearing) on 17th February.—[Vol. 811, c. 1819–20.]

Mr. Meacher

Do not the latest statistics show council house rents averaging about once gross value while fair rents for modern and well maintained properties like council houses are unlikely to be less than two and a half times gross value? Will the Minister confirm that the Government are budgeting for utterly unprecedented and unjust rises in council rents, and will he state what comparable changes in subsidy he has in mind the owner-occupiers, whose subsidy, ridiculously, rises the better off they are?

Mr. Amery

The hon. Member's Question related to the percentage increase expected for certain types of council house rents. I can only say at this stage that the increase will depend upon the nature of the house. Our policy is to help individuals and families rather than bricks and mortar. We shall give support to human beings where there is need instead of giving support to bricks and mortar where there may or may not be need.

Mr. Crosland

The Question relates to the level of unrebated rents. Does the Minister not know, first of all, the present average level of rents for a three-bedroom house, and, secondly, does he not know what he means by fair rents when he proposes them to local authorities? He must know these things. Why can he not tell the House what is the likely difference between these two figures? Is he simply leaving his answer until after 13th May?

Mr. Amery

I would not want the right hon. Gentleman to overstrain himself. If he thinks that there is an average level of rents for a three-bedroom house —[HON. MEMBERS: "There is."]—irrespective of whether it was built before the First World War, since the Second World War or between the wars, then he ought to go back for a refresher course.

Mr. Crosland

Is the Minister seriously saying that he is making these new proposals on fair rents to local authorities—and he will eventually present them to the House no doubt—without any idea what average increase in rents this will mean?

Mr. Amery

It cannot possibly be a question of an average. Certain houses will not require very much to come up to the fair rents bracket; others will require more.