HC Deb 23 April 1971 vol 815 cc1523-53

Not amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.

12.15 p.m.

Mr. Ifor Davies (Gower)

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

The House has just listened to a very involved legal discussion on the Administration of Estates Bill, which is of vital importance. I am glad that we are now moving to the final stage of a Bill of equally vital importance and perhaps of greater interest.

The Bill has passed speedily and smoothly through its various stages in this House. That would not have been possible but for the co-operation of hon. Members of both sides of the House, and I welcome the opportunity of acknowledging again the general approval which the Bill has received from right hon. and hon. Members.

The Bill, in essence, is a challenge to local auhorities in Wales in so far as it removes the restrictive conditions applied by Section 132 of the Local Government Act, 1948, which we discussed in detail in Committee, and thus enables those local authorities in Wales which choose to do so to contribute out of the rates in particular towards the expenses of the Welsh National Opera Company. Section 132 was a great act of faith by the late Aneurin Bevan, the architect of the 1948 Act.

The need for financial backing for the Welsh National Opera Company is a matter of great urgency. Hence, the importance of the Bill. There is no doubt whatsoever—indeed, it is widely recognised—that the Welsh National Opera Company, despite the immense difficulties with which it has been confronted since its inception in 1946—it has been operating for the past three years on a standstill budget, despite rising costs in every direction—has achieved very high standards. Furthermore, it is recognised that the technical considerations in opera planning involve long-term forward commitments, and nobody can challenge that this is an expensive business.

Some four years ago, with the approval of the Arts Council, the Welsh National Opera Company launched its development plan. It has constantly and, indeed, successfully, striven to aim always at excellence and to give full value for money.

It is appropriate that the Bill should be before the House this week as it coincides with the opening of the Welsh National Opera Company's new season at the New Theatre, Cardiff. Here, again, it is playing to capacity audiences and has already enhanced the reputation of its famous chorus and, indeed, the excellence of its new production of "The Magic Flute". Indeed, it plays to capacity audiences throughout its seasons at Cardiff, Swansea and Llandudno, as well as in an increasing number of English provinces from Southampton to Sunderland.

It is now accepted that the Welsh National Opera Company is an integral part of the overall pattern of opera in the United Kingdom. Its services to the development of operas in the regions is quite outstanding but is not in my view fully recognised. Despite all the company's box office success—and it has been quite outstanding—it needs additional public financial support to maintain it, and this is one of the objects of the Bill. Financial support for opera is a characteristic need in all countries. I shall not detain the House with all the details that I have here of the support given to opera in Austria and Germany. For greater accuracy I have the details on the authority of the Librarian himself. He has computed the figures so that we can understand them in our language.

Leading Welsh operatic singers are very much in demand in Austria and Germany, and I should like to quote a few figures which are of great interest. The Vienna State Opera receives State help of about £3 million, while the Folk Opera receives about £10 million. Berlin Opera receives a State contribution of well over £2¼ million. Hamburg receives more than £1½ million, and in Munich the help again amounts to more than £1 million. A total of nearly £5 million is given to Berlin, Hamburg and Munich.

Mr. Ernie Money (Ipswich)

Has the hon. Gentleman borne in mind the additional fact that in all the cases to which he has referred there is not the additional expense of touring, which must form a large part of the budget of an organisation like the Welsh National Opera Company?

Mr. Ifor Davies

I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman. I should not like to underestimate the expense involved when a company goes on tour. I am glad that the hon. Gentleman intervened, because it must be recognised that if there is any opera company which has made a contribution to touring opera it is the Welsh Opera Company, but the fact is that it has not received full recognition for all that it has done. Last year the company went to nine provinces in England alone. I mentioned its having toured from Sunderland to Southampton. I could mention other counties that it visited, but suffice it to say that it has done more in this respect than any other opera company.

Schedule 3 on page 83 of the Annual Report of the Arts Council shows the contributions which have been made during the year. It shows a contribution of £1,400,000 to Covent Garden. Sadlers Wells received £762,000. The figure for the Welsh National Opera Company, which had been fixed at £160,000 for two or three years, moved to £178,000. I do not want to be misunderstood. Those figures represent considerable help, and we are grateful for it, but one can draw comparisons between them.

It is imperative that help is received from the public purse, and this need was well summed up by the Chairman of the Arts Council, Lord Goodman, in his introduction to the 25th Annual Report of the Arts Council, when he said: …there is an area of artistic activity that must wither and die without help from the public purse. The test of eligibility for support is easier to sense than to define, but in broad terms the beneficiary objective must have merit or promise of merit, appeal or prospect of appeal, and must satisfy a discriminating need. I submit that the Welsh National Opera Company answers all those tests of eligibility for support.

I should like to put on record my appreciation of the help given by the Government, through the Arts Council, in the recent negotiations to meet the deficit which was a great threat to the existence of the Welsh National Opera Company. I acknowledge that co-operation, and I do not want to underestimate the help that has been given, but in moving the Third Reading of the Bill this morning I regret to have to tell the House that, despite its fine record of continuous musical and artistic success, this company is now faced with a financial position regarding its future plans which compels it to curtail its productions and halt its development plan. This is a tragedy.

Above all, I deplore the fact that the company has to consider abandoning its training scheme, which would be a terrific blow to the future a young Welsh singers. The company has made an impressive contribution to opera throughout Britain, and if it fails for financial reasons it will be an irreparable blow to the arts, inside and outside the Principality.

The Welsh National Opera Company deserves every possible help from the Government, through the Arts Council, the general public, and the local authorities. It is in that spirit, and with confidence, that I commend the Bill to the House.

12.27 p.m.

Mr. W. R. Rees-Davies (Isle of Thanet)

I agree with every word said by the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Ifor Davies) who has done a service to his people in Wales by choosing this subject for a Bill to mark his success in the Ballot.

I speak as an expatriate. I rise with the support, and at the prompt request, of my hon. Friend the Member for Barry (Mr. Gower) who regrets that he cannot be here this morning. I know that he gave great support to the hon. Gentleman in the promotion of the Bill. Having served at one time in the Welsh Guards, having had the opportunity of hearing Welsh music and Welsh choirs, and having followed not merely opera, but the other choral activities of the Welsh people, I know that those who live in England and who serve the interests of tourism, both at home and overseas, realise that the whole world recognises the musical gifts of the Welsh people. They know that when people go to Wales they expect to hear those gifts being used by the Welsh people as members of choirs, or in opera.

As the hon. Gentleman said, assistance is given to opera in Salzburg, in Vienna and in Munich, and the same applies in Milan, too. German and Italian people also have certain musical talents which they explore and expand to the full. It is recognised in those countries, in a way that is not done here, that an essential requirement is the development of their full cultural activities in order to develop tourism.

The 1948 Act did not appreciate what we now realise is the position, and an amendment is necessary to enable every local authority throughout Wales to genuinely participate by subscribing money to provide for what is a truly national heritage, in this case the development and expansion of Welsh opera.

The Welsh National Opera Company, formed in 1946, became a non-profit-making company, limited by guarantee, in 1948. Therefore, it has now been effectively carrying on for a quarter of a century. But it began, as many good things do, as a purely amateur effort. We, in a small way in Kent, are doing the same by way of a small Kent opera. In other parts of the country, others with amateur efforts, are developing not amateur dramatics but amateur operatic societies.

One thing has been recognised by the Arts Council, that, for opera and ballet, the costs of presentation and of communication—not least of transport communication—mean that one cannot charge an audience a price which would show a profit. This is particularly true of the tourist, who may attend at Cardiff, Llandudno or Swansea to hear this opera. The charge may show a profit for that one production, but not in relation to its general touring problems.

The Government, through the Arts Council, recently wiped out the Welsh National Opera's deficit of £150,000. That clearly shows that there is a fund of good will for the future but it is up to local people in an area to give their local support to something which is truly national. Welsh people should see this as one of the exhibits in their shop window and support it to the full. That is why this is such a good Bill.

The deficits have been largely made up by individual people, but we cannot continue to expect them to do that—although we might be able to work out some method similar to the National Arts Collection Fund, by which life members, on payment of an overall sum, are entitled to admission on beneficial terms.

This travelling opera company has travelled to Bournemouth, Birmingham, Leeds and Southampton and is now considering a tour of universities, beginning this year at Oxford. It is right that it should be expanded to the universities, where it could be of great benefit out of term time, since one can hope in future to use the universities for the development of international tourism.

Thus, when large groups of American visitors go to stately homes and to Oxford and Cambridge and other universities, they would be able to see something like the Welsh National Opera, just as, at Warwick or Blenheim, they can see son et lumiére performances. The development of these cultural activities is what the public and overseas visitors expect. The Welsh National Opera Company has an effective part to play in the training of new singers, to ensure that the natural talents of young Welsh singers are exploited to the full, in the same way as young singers are encouraged in Italy and Germany.

The company plays to capacity audiences, but mainly in the main cities. They should give precedence to playing in Wales, and their touring season is something extra, an opportunity to build up their potential. There were two previous precedents—the Royal National Eisteddfod and the Llangollen Musical Eisteddfod, the two occasions for which this Bill had to be widened.

There is a great difference between this company and the Sadlers Wells and Covent Garden companies. Those of us who take a close interest in tourism are anxious to diffuse the advantages of culture outside the metropolis. Far too many activities are confined to London, and very soon the Londoner will not be able to enjoy many of the pleasures of London because he is being swamped by the "furriners". This is one activity which could be so diffused.

I ask my hon. Friend the Minister of State, who has taken a close interest in the Bill, to draw to the attention of the Welsh Tourist Board the part which it can play in giving assistance to this company. Choral performances as well as operatic in places like Carmarthen and Harlech Castles and other suitably historic homes could use the members of this opera company to develop peculiarly Welsh performances, following the example of owners of such homes in England. This would bring out the full effect of the spirit of Wales.

Mr. Ifor Davies

The hon. Gentleman is making a very helpful speech, but would he add to his list the Welsh National Opera Company orchestra which is available? The Minister of State and I had the pleasure of hearing a youthful orchestra at the opening night of the new performances of "The Magic Flute". In the past six months, under the guidance of the Arts Council, about eight orchestras outside Wales have given some 25 performances in the Principality. Use should also be made of the Welsh National Opera Company orchestras in other parts of Wales, to sustain and and maintain it.

Mr. Rees-Davies

I am much indebted to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, with which I wholeheartedly agree. It is a question of the Welsh Tourist Board's getting together those who have interests in music of all types in Wales —although perhaps it is the voice which is the most famous aspect attributed to the Welsh people—to consider an imaginative programme to be presented as a whole and to go outside Cardiff, Llandudno and Swansea, so that it reaches the Welsh people in every aspect and enables them to join in. Unless they provide the basic audience and the basic interests, and local authorities develop the idea, it will not be so attractive to the tourists from overseas, to the expatriates, who will then hear of these presentations.

We have a number of festivals in different parts of the country. In the case of the theatre I am reminded of the Chichester Festival and the Aldeburgh Festival. The development of this type of thing in Wales could produce something of great value. Welsh festivals have primarily been of music—choral, opera and orchestras. They can be of the greatest value if those concerned consider the site of the performances. It is much more exciting to be able to listen to music in an atmosphere that is thoroughly appropriate, such as the grounds of a beautiful castle in the summer, or somewhere with an old keep in the background. People can have the advantage of hearing the flute played well, and the violins are far more attractive in that type of surrounding than in the average ordinary concert hall.

I hope that the Bill can be used to encourage the Welsh people as a whole to recognise not only their heritage but to seek to expand it for their own benefit, producing for themselves much additional money by attracting people to come to Wales, and to stay there to enjoy these pleasures.

In one sense the Bill is a precedent in widening the scope for local authorities to make a grant, in this case for the benefit of entertainment. I hope that the Government will take the view that local authorities throughout the United Kingdom should be encouraged to try to develop the cultural activities of their own areas and present them in the best light. For example, in Norfolk people might turn to the presentation of paintings, to the great school of Crome and the old Norfolk school. In an area where there are particularly fine historic homes the presentation of pageantry may be suitable. If we develop our country to the full in this way we shall find people moving to all parts of the United Kingdom to enjoy the different cultural pursuits in the various distrcts.

All of us who are interested in such matters, whether expatriates or otherwise, are indebted to the hon. Members who considered the Bill, and I greatly hope that we shall give it its Third Reading today.

12.45 p.m.

Mr. Ernie Money (Ipswich)

I add my tribute to the sagacity and initiative of the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Ifor Davies) in introducing this important legislation. As an English Member, I find it a great pleasure to say so on a day when some of us should be wearing red roses and paying our tribute to St. George and St. David.

I am also glad to add to the tributes paid to the Welsh National Opera Company. None of us who heard the performances in London of Verdi's "Nabucco" will ever forget the sound of the voices of the Welsh chorus in the great song of faith and hope "Va, pensiero". The hon. Gentleman referred to the production of "The Magic Flute", which he has been lucky enough to see. Some of us hope to see it when it is brought to London, as it undoubtedly will be in view of the tributes paid to it in the Press. Production was scheduled for 18 months ago, but it had to be postponed not because the singers, the conductor or the artists were not available, but purely for financial reasons. Such difficulties always face the presentation of this art form in the United Kingdom.

It is right to stress, as the hon. Gentleman did, the importance of the company as one of the three English-speaking permanent opera companies in this country. Now that the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden has adopted almost entirely the stagione system I do not believe that any of us would pretend that it falls into that category in any sense. I pay tribute to the work done at Covent Garden and the high achievements there, but I feel that in many ways for the future of our own cultural heritage the position of Sadlers Wells, the Scottish Opera and the Welsh National Opera Company is probably more central.

Mr. Patrick Cormack (Cannock)

Does my hon. Friend agree that the tremendous example of pride in their own national opera that the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues have shown could well be followed by some of us who are wearing the red rose today?

Mr. Money

Indeed, and I hope to turn to that point later.

The hon. Gentleman also spoke of the importance of the Welsh National Opera Company as a training ground. From a national point of view we should pay tribute to the importance of the institution and the important part that Welsh singers like Sir Geraint Evans and Gwyneth Jones have played not only in building up our own standards in this country but in bringing up tremendous prestige in opera houses throughout the world. It is important to stress, therefore, that the training scheme for young opera singers at Cardiff should not be lost. We hope that it will be built up in the same way as the Opera Centre in London is being built up. Anything likely to jeopardise that work would be likely to jeopardise the tremendous recrudescence of this art form, with all its importance for tourism and other material interests.

It is right that an English Member should pay tribute to the Welsh National Opera Company's touring activities, which are steadily building up. In 1967–68 it visited Bristol. In 1968–69 it went to Bristol, Birmingham and Stratford, and last year it went to Bristol, Manchester, Southampton, Leeds, Birmingham and Sunderland. We hear that this year it may also be going for quite a long season to Oxford. When, for various reasons, it has been almost impossible to establish effective regional opera outside London, and when for financial and other reasons Sadlers Wells must spend a large amount of time in the metropolis, this is a matter of the greatest importance.

We should bear in mind that the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden, which is not basically suited to touring, has not been able to tour since its visit to Manchester in 1964. There is a hunger for opera in provincial centres throughout the United Kingdom. The Sadlers Wells Company has been touring at Bristol this month, and it is interesting to note that there has been a staggering increase in the size of its audiences. In 1970 it had a 49 per cent. attendance by paying customers throughout the period it was at Bristol. This year the figure has gone up to between 79 and 83 per cent. This illustrates the tremendous growth of interest in the provinces.

I turn now to the importance of bringing audiences to opera when it is impossible to bring opera to the audiences.

Mr. Cormack

The question of the creation of new audiences is tremendously important, but before my hon. Friend moves on to his next point would he direct his mind to the enormous potential of television and particularly the great assistance it would give to the Welsh National Opera Company if it were seen on television screens more often?

Mr. Money

That is quite right. That is something which has been borne in mind in the last few years with regard to all the major English companies. The difficulty has been in finding the right timings to fit the expenditure in putting on an opera at possibly non-peak periods. I hope that the success of organisations like the Welsh National Opera Company will continue to build up audiences for opera so that they will be able to obtain more peak periods for performances on television.

I come to the question of audiences outside the touring areas. Over the last few years, apart from the Aldeburgh Festival, with its special and extremely expensive performances, the only major centre in East Anglia which has had the benefit of regular operatic visits is Norwich. I am therefore encouraged by the scheme evolved by Mr. Stephen Arlen, the general administrator of Sadlers Wells, whereby if it is impossible, because of the absence of a theatre or for other technical reasons, to take an opera company to a large provincial centre—and here I speak with some feeling because we have not had opera in Ipswich for many years—alternative arrangements can be made with British Rail to provide special trains from a centre where the demand warrants it to enable people to go to Sadlers Wells or any other area where the company is performing. This is of some importance in connection with the contents of the Bill.

Before I leave the question of touring, I should like to refer to the summary of this matter referred to in the Report of the Harewood Committee, which reported to the Arts Council in 1966–69. The matter was summarised on page 17 in this way: On the Continent the large opera companies do no significant touring in their own countries, and in Britain touring has presented increasing difficulties. The theatres in most British provincial towns are by London standards outdated. Orchestra pits and dressing-rooms are generally inadequate, and space on the stage usually so cramped that there is little room for storage, so that the companies' lorries either have to be used for that purpose or for carting the scenery to and from the theatre and stores. There have been annual complaints about the limitations imposed on the foreign companies which have visited the Edinburgh International Festival and it can only be assumed that they have undergone these difficulties because of the glamour of this occasion and the prestige of appearing there. Touring in any event imposes a considerable strain on performers, and with the general inadequacy of theatres for the presentation of full-scale opera and ballet, companies cannot achieve the same standards as in their home bases. The adjustment of a production to a different theatre is likely to involve a loss of quality for the first few performances. The worst problems occur with opera, and Sadler's Wells, even before they moved to the Coliseum, were considering whether, for both artistic and practical reasons, they would have to make provision for duplicate touring scenery which would be suitable for the lowest common denominator of theatre; this problem has, of course, been highlighted with the move to the Coliseum". I stress those words, because approximately two-thirds of the Arts Council subsidy received by Sadlers Wells in recent years has gone on touring. This highlights the difficulty facing a company which has a duty to the regions unless it gets support of the type proposed by this admirable Bill.

Equally there is great significance in the extension of audience support. The time was when opera in this country was a rare bird. It was a bird of exotic plumage which settled for a few brief weeks at the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden, with the company singing in foreign tongues and performing to almost exotic audiences, many of whom, one is tempted to think, probably did not arrive until halfway through the second act. It has now found a basic root in this country so that one can say with some pride that it is of such a standard that, together with our galleries and other attractions, it constitutes one of the great tourist attractions which we have to offer foreign visitors.

But there is a continual need to reach out to new audiences through various media. To this extent, the recommendation in the Harewood Report about the need for a co-ordinating board for touring opera and the need for parity of salary scales between the companies is important in that it will enable those who have to plan for the future of opera to put it on a permanent rather than on a hothouse footing.

There is also need to consider new means of presenting this art form. Two problems of the Welsh National Opera Company can be highlighted. The first is the need for a permanent base suitable for the performance of opera in Cardiff. I hope that the hon. Member for Gower will not think it any derogation to the New theatre if I say that all the authorities appear to have the view that in the long run it is highly desirable for Cardiff, as for Edinburgh, to find a suitable theatre for the presentation of large scale opera and ballet.

This matter is referred to specifically in page 51 of the Harewood Report, where it is said: We recommend the building of a new opera house in Wales, presumably in Cardiff, to house the Welsh National Opera Company and to provide a stage for visiting companies. The logical development of the Welsh National Opera Company, which in our view is strongly to be encouraged, renders the provision of an opera house in which it can operate indispensable if it is to attain the full strength and position which its national aspirations merit. Hon. Members who have had the mixed blessing of sitting through a performance at the King's Theatre, Edinburgh, during the Edinburgh Festival will know the miseries and splendours of listening to opera of the highest quality in circumstances totally unsuitable for the performance of work of that standard.

Mr. Cormack

One thing we are very short-sighted about—I am sure my hon. Friend agree—is in thinking that opera and other art forms should pay for themselves there and then. Building up all these attractions and the creation of arts which are worth coming to see bring more tourists into the country, and these in turn bring more money with them. One cannot, therefore, say that the arts do not pay for themselves. Indeed, they have been responsible for bringing many millions of £s into the country.

Mr. Money

I am obliged to my hon. Friend. I had intended to turn to that matter. I had it in mind. If he will bear with me, I shall turn to it later in my speech.

A matter of the greatest importance, both to the Welsh National Opera Company and to the future of the other art forms in this country, is the question of adapting the buildings which are not necessarily prepared with a proscenium arch or which are not the type of house suitable for what used to be called "grand opera". There is a great case for taking opera out to where other audiences are available, but where perhaps no houses are big enough to show an opera like "Carmen" Why not use aerodromes, for example, which provide suitable open air sites. This is already done in Italy. There are also possibilities in suitable football grounds or even in big enough factories to hold opera in the round. I hope that such excursions will be given encouragement so that it will be possible for our three principal tourising companies to reach wider audiences.

I am sorry that, in a sense, this Bill has been concerned only with the Welsh National Opera Company. I shall not incur the wrath of my Welsh colleagues by treading on the dangerous ground of Monmouthshire. But I regret that, for practical purposes, the subject has been approached purely as a Welsh matter. I say this because no local companies are established in any of the English regions, which contrasts with the situation in Scotland and Wales. Comparison has already been made by hon. Members with the situation in Germany, Austria and Italy, where almost any centre of some size has a house of its own.

The benefit that comes to the English regions from the existence of a company like the Welsh Natonal Opera Company, which is willing and ready to tour, is tremendous. I should have preferred a Bill of a wider purpose. Of course I agree with the terms of the Bill—to amend Section 132 of the Local Government Act, 1948, in order to give power to local authorities to make contributions towards entertainment and the promotion of cultural activities outside their own immediate areas—but I would prefer to have seen this extended throughout the country so that, for example, when the Welsh National Opera Company goes to Oxford it would be possible for Oxfordshire County Council or for Oxford City Council to adopt the visit as a supportable venture.

Mr. Cormack

I am sure my hon. Friend would agree that it would not be transgressing on the time of the House to say that the contributions now under the 1948 Act are derisory and that we must bend our minds to this problem in this House. I should like to see great opera houses—which would give encouragement to architects, incidentally—built in our major centres. This is the sort of adventurous way in which we have to tackle the problem. I am sure that we are all grateful to the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Ifor Davies) and his hon. Friends for making this small beginning.

Mr. Money

I concur entirely. I echo what has been said—that Section 132 of the 1948 Act, which has given great opportunities to local authorities in many ways, has been more honoured in the breach than in the observance. One hopes that in future it will be more freely and powerfully used by the local authorities.

I have only one caveat about the Bill. I would rather have seen it applying to the whole country instead of just to Wales and Monmouthshire, so that there could have been wider provision for building specifically for this purpose. One comes back to the theme of national shame—I say this without embarrassment, for I do not think any Scotsmen are present—of the absence of a suitable opera house for the Edinburgh Festival. Over and over again, the answer which comes from local authorities with regard to something fit to house presentations of this kind is that they cannot borrow enough money and will need special powers to do so and in these circumstances are not prepared to take it on.

Before leaving this aspect, I want to refer to tourism in relation to which the Bill is a belated act of justice. Mention has been made of Llandudno, where, throughout the summer, the Welsh National Opera Company has been a major tourist attraction for the season. But the matter does not rest there. Although Llandudno itself, or the county council, may have been supporting the company, many areas stretching out into the surrounding country benefit through the influx of tourists who come in because of such attractions. The Bill is, therefore, an act of equity towards the beneficiaries of these attractions.

I want to stress that expenses do not just stop at the arrival of a company in a particular town for a particular season. Effective touring means permanent running expenses. It is not just a question of the expenses involved in getting a number of players and a certain amount of scenery by train or other form of conveyance to a certain place. There must be a permanent organisation. There must be permanent workshops and a permanent secretariat. This is one of the factors in the escalating costs of the major opera companies.

I will quote a few figures for the Welsh National Opera Company. The John Street Opera Workshop in Cardiff cost the company, in the last year for which figures are available, £11,500; the administration cost another £20,000. The combined total is very nearly four times the total even of the generous subsidy of £7,750 which the company receives from the great City of Cardiff. The other companies are also faced with this sort of difficulty all the time.

Covent Garden has now a major opportunity with the removal of the market. At long last it has the chance to have suitable rehearsal, scenery and costume accommodation. Instead of having to rehearse, as often happens, in parts of the building normally used for completely alien purposes—for example, refreshment rooms—or having to go to the East End to use the Opera Centre there, Covent Garden will have the opportunity, where the market has been standing, of being able to expand its buildings. I hope that the Arts Council, which is specifically charged with these matters, will bear this problem very much in mind when considering future grants.

Here, I turn to a matter which I believe is fundamental to this whole problem—the question of the need for a general grant not only from the Arts Council but also from local authorities. This is a matter which has been touched on again and again in nearly all the reports which have been prepared for the Arts Council. It was touched on specifically in the Peacock Report. It is related to the matter of an opera company having its own orchestra. This affects the whole planning future of such an organisation. One can see it only too clearly in the problems which Sadlers Wells has faced, and it affects the Welsh National Opera Company, too. It is the problem of not knowing where next season's money is coming from or even if it is coming at all and of being able to provide a first-rate orchestra.

This is one of the great difficulties. An opera company is always faced with the problem of having an orchestra of its own, an orchestra which can be used for outside purposes, but an orchestra of its own so that the company does not have to bring in an outside orchestra, as has been done on various occasions with the Welsh National Opera Company, the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra and the Northern Simfonia. I believe most strongly that it is vital that, wherever possible, a permanent orchestra should be built up for an opera company. By all means let those orchestras be used for other purposes—for giving concerts, for playing in television performances, and so on—but the orchestra should be central to the opera company so that the players know where their money is coming from and can know the terms of the contracts by which they will live.

Mr. Cormack

While we welcome this constructive Bill, surely my hon. Friend will agree that it really is complete nonsense to think in the long term of an opera company being given help but without its orchestra being created, to be a part of the opera company itself? The singers and musicians are two parts of one whole, and we cannot really have the one part without the other.

Mr. Money

I agree indeed with my hon. Friend, and again merely echo that this was stressed by the distinguished persons who were members of the Hare-wood Committee.

The Bill obviously will not be a panacea for all the problems involved with opera, even in Wales, but it does go some way towards solving the prob- lems with which this art is faced. The problems one would stress are, first, that short-term planning is expensive, as one sees in almost all the arts—for instance, in the acquisition of works of arts for major collections. How much money could have been saved if there had been major acquisition grants 10 years ago rather than that present prices have to be paid. The same applies to the building of suitable accommodation for opera and ballet and to being able to plan over a long-term period, as one has seen with Sadlers Wells and Covent Garden and, to a lesser extent, with the Welsh National Opera Company. It is an extremely expensive business, having to stop a performance, drop it half way through a run, because there is not enough money to continue it, and being unable to be certain whether a singer engaged for this season will be able to be retained again before the next season, because one cannot guarantee an adequate salary. There is also, of course, the difficulty of not knowing where the money is coming from to pay for a permanent orchestra, and of having to hire one on an ad hoc basis.

I repeat briefly a matter which was touched on earlier because I think it is important to deal with it in context. It is one of the most important matters. Great developments have taken place since 1945 and almost concurrently with the life of this company in particular. Opera is no longer regarded as a sort of hothouse plant unconnected with the life of the country, but is now regarded as a part of the life of the country. That feeling must grow, and there must be be enough money available to try new forms, to try new places to attract new audiences. In particular, money should be put up for young singers and young composers. One of the most shameful things about this country over the last 25 years has been that over and over again English composers have had to go to Germany to find a suitable vehicle for first performances of their works.

Opera is an art which, by its very nature, will always call for subsidy, and the greatest part of that will certainly have to come from public patronage, either in the form of Government subsidy or through the Arts Council.

Mr. Cormack

Would my hon. Friend please stress that this is no new situation? In the past it was the great private patron who provided the money for local opera groups—very often in Germany and elsewhere on the Continent. Today the private patron is no longer with us, and so we have really got to provide public patronage to take his place.

Mr. Money

This, I am sure, is right, and it is public patronage which has to be given—not merely by this House being called upon from time to time to increase a grant which goes to the arts or to the Arts Council which in its turn calls for money from a specific organisation such as the Royal Opera House, which has taken up so large a part of the Arts Council grant. I welcome the Bill in that it brings in the local authorities on a broad basis, not as broad a basis as I should have liked, but, still, a broad basis, so as to be able to provide this kind of public patronage—in this case to a specific organisation.

However, there are two other forms of patronage which it would be wrong to lose sight of. There are regional arts associations which can be an encouragement to bringing in money from private sources. I do not necessarily mean big private sources; contributions would be welcomed whencesoever they come. There were some hon. Members who were invited to hear the formidable Miss Nancy Hanks, the administrator of the American arts programme, and they will have noted with considerable interest the emphasis which she placed not only on the way in which the money was coming in, not only from big companies but also in subscriptions and donations of amounts as small as one or two dollars, and so the donors all felt committed to the work of the programme. Also, the tax system in America is so organised as to give maximum concessions and benefits to trust organisations of that kind. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister of State will bring this to the attention of the Paymaster-General, and draw to his attention the fact that there is a strong feeling throughout the House that this form of aid is valuable and may be fundamental for the future of the arts in this country.

From both the material and also, and far more importantly, from the spiritual standpoint, I hope we shall not be forced into escalating seat prices as they have been escalated at the Royal Opera House, with the effect that the actual capacity of the audience goes down. One would like specifically to pay tribute to Sadlers Wells that it has kept its prices down. Its audiences have increased as a result, and so many young people—and others—who could not otherwise have afforded to go, can go to opera, and form a taste for it, and derive pleasure from an art on which, in any case, a substantial amount of public money is spent.

I utter a word of warning about the whole future of opera. The future of the Welsh National Opera Company a few months ago was seriously at risk. The Press has recently been full of rumours about the difficulties faced by the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden, and by Sadlers Wells. The Scots Opera has been in financial difficulties although, like the Welsh National Opera Company, it has built up a tremendous reputation in its rather shorter life. Glyndebourne has been dependent on high prices and support from private sources.

Mr. Cormack

Does not my hon. Friend agree that it is a blow to the prestige of the country when people coming from abroad to enjoy the best we have to offer know that that best may not continue beyond the foreseeable future? Will he make an earnest plea to my right hon. Friend that our sentiments are passed on to the Paymaster-General?

Mr. Norman Fowler (Nottingham, South)

My hon. Friend is extending conservative principles very far. He is almost suggesting that there should be an unlimited public purse for subsidising opera. My view is that some caution is called for.

Mr. Money

I hope my hon. Friend has not misunderstood me. I have not suggested that subsidies, however much one would like them, should be unlimited. I am calling for a planned policy of subsidies rather than the present unplanned system. I want subsidies which will be sufficiently generous to be effective, instead of the present system which involves desperate appeals—

Mr. Cormack

Bearing in mind the enormous earning potential from tourists.

Mr. Money

That is certainly right. Money spent on the artistic life of London comes back in the form of money earned by tourism and in the enormous prestige of the capital. The success of the English musical scene is part and parcel of our invisible earnings. This is absolutely fundamental to the future of opera and of all the performing arts.

There is a risk that because the arts are expensive and because they are Arts Council subsidised there will be too much demand, in the sense that the price of tickets will go up to such an extent that ordinary people cannot afford to buy them. There may be a strong case for having gala price tickets for performances at Covent Garden which appeal to a certain audience, but I hope that it will never be suggested that the price of tickets at Sadlers Wells, the Welsh National Opera and the Scottish Opera or even in Covent Garden cannot be kept down to such a level that people who are paying in the form of taxes and rates can afford to go to performances.

Mr. Cormack

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is illogical on the one hand, to have free admission to public galleries —or the miniscule charge which is shortly to be imposed—to see the finest works of art and, on the other hand, that the price of admission to the performance of opera is beyond what students and old people can afford?

Mr. Money

My hon. Friend is right. When the plans are announced I hope that the Paymaster-General will bear in mind the possibility of reviewing the funds for the galleries.

This is the first opportunity we have had to debate arts matters in the House since many of us were elected. The time is coming when we shall have to approach the subsidised opera companies in two different ways. Covent Garden is not dependent on the existence of a permanent body of English singers, and not dependent entirely on a regionalised audience, drawing, as it does singers and conductors from overseas to take part in highly publicised festival-type performances. We must, therefore, discount Covent Garden in operatic planning.

Glyndebourne is a special case. It runs for a comparatively short season and has standards of the utmost distinction. It is one of those typically English institutions that logically should have died on its feet within a few hours of birth. One is tempted to think that it has continued to exist only because it is such a long way from London and it is therefore a great challenge to English people to keep it going.

The true operatic life of the country depends on three major existing English singing companies. I appeal, through my right hon. Friend, to the Paymaster-General to consider the rationalisation of this situation in relation to Sadlers Wells.

Mr. Cormack

I hope that the sponsor of the Bill, who is still here, will use his good offices to take up the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for the Isle of Thanet (Mr. Rees-Davies) who painted in such graphic and glowing colours the exciting potential of what might be called the Welsh Glyndebourne at Carnarvon Castle. How marvellous it would be for "Aida" to be performed by the Welsh National Opera Company in a setting like that. Can we hope that these ideas will be passed on?

Mr. Money

To turn from the exceptional performances of Glyndebourne to the bread and butter of opera, we are lucky enough to have the Welsh National Opera Company and the Scottish Opera, which is now performing with great success principally in Glasgow and Edinburgh, but we lack an English opera company as such. Although Sadlers Wells is in effect the English opera company, it has been called either "Sadlers Wells" or "Sadlers Wells at the Coliseum" and has been treated by the Arts Council and by local authorities as a major company which has somehow found itself in the middle of the Metropolis. I hope that the Paymaster-General will consider making Sadlers Wells either the British National Opera Company or at least the English National Opera Company. There is a temptation to take a cynical approach and to say that one reason successive Ministers have not taken that step is that it would be difficult, once Sadlers Wells were recognised as a national opera, to send it up the spout in an economic crisis.

Such a step would be a fit and proper recognition of the achievements of Sadlers Wells. There is the Royal Opera at Covent Garden and there is the Royal Ballet Company. There is no reason why Sadlers Wells should not be given the equally proud title of National Opera House. It is the only opera house that performs almost entirely in English in the Metropolis and almost entirely with Commonwealth singers. The taking of such a step is of the greatest importance from the point of view of the prestige it would give and which has been undoubtedly earned by Sadlers Wells.

Now that Sadlers Wells Theatre is used by visiting companies and Sadlers Wells itself plays at the Coliseum, the public experiences difficulty in knowing what is playing at Sadlers Wells Theatre. It is vitally important for foreign tourists to be shown how good Sadlers Wells is, just as they are shown how good the Welsh National Opera is.

If Sadlers Wells were established as the National Opera Company it would clearly fit into its position as the permanently-based British company through which our standards would be established irrespective of anything that happened at Covent Garden with its swallows which come for a month or two. It would solidify the position which Sadlers Wells has built up, just as the Welsh National Opera Company has solidified its position. We in England are unfortunate, perhaps, in that we do not have the same natural heritage of music that our colleagues from the Principality have.

There is the whole question of the absence of any operatic function in the hinterland of the English region. At one time Sadlers Wells divided itself so that there was always an A company playing in London and a B company on tour, or vice versa. This entailed two permanent companies, two secretariats, two orchestras, and a top-heavy organisation. Recently Sadlers Wells has been organised on the basis of one company only, which has caused considerable difficulties in casting and has given rise to the inevitable feeling that when Sadlers Wells tours it does so as a second team.

Long-term planning should be on the basis of there being three strong companies available to tour. One possibility is that Sadlers Wells should merge with the Glyndebourne Touring Company so as to have a touring company. Then there would be the Welsh National Opera Company, with its special responsibilities in Wales, increasingly touring the rest of the United Kingdom, as at present, and with suport not only from Welsh local authorities and the Welsh Arts Council, but also from the English Arts Council, as at present, and from English local authorities. The same would apply to Scottish Opera and to a touring opera, whether called the Midlands Opera or whether based in some other part of the country, and orgainsed by Sadlers Wells in conjunction with Glyndebourne.

Mr. Fowler

Would it not be appropriate to regard the Welsh National Opera Company, with its tremendous touring experience, and remembering that it comes from the Principality which is renowned as the land of song, as being in course of time the principal touring company with its own orchestra and perhaps with two companies?

Mr. Ifor Davies

I am gratified by the many interesting ideas which are being thrown up in the debate. Every one of these ideas will be closely examined. However, I emphasise that the whole purpose of the Bill is to save the Welsh National Opera Company. I hope that the Bill will succeed in getting a Third Reading, otherwise none of the ideas which have been thrown up will be of use and the Welsh National Opera Company will suffer. I emphasise that the whole object of the Bill is to do something about the present serious financial position. Action speaks louder than words; and action is urgently needed.

Mr. Money

I accept that. As actions speak louder than words, I must not take up any more of the time of the House.

Sir Gerald Nabarro (Worcestershire, South)

Hear, hear. There are other things in the world than Welsh music.

Mr. Money

I always listen with great interest to anything that falls from the lips of my hon. Friend the Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro). He will appreciate that there have been a number of occasions during the course of the last nine months on which he has been able to contribute to the discussion of subjects which are of interest to him. This is the first occasion since June of last year on which those of us interested in the subject have been able to contribute to a debate on Welsh music, English music, or indeed on the arts generally. We thank the hon. Member for Gower for having provided us with the opportunity of doing so. I thank the Chair for the latitude it has shown. I wish the Bill every possible success.

1.40 p.m.

Sir Anthony Meyer (Flint, West)

I would not attempt to match my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Money) in quantity, and I would not assume the arrogance of attempting to match him in quality. But after we have heard a Welsh Member for an English seat and an English Member for an English seat, it seems appropriate that an English Member for a Welsh seat, from the back benches on this side of the House, should congratulate the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Ifor Davies) on bringing forward this extremely, useful, valuable, essential and timely Measure.

The value of the Welsh National Opera Company is not merely as a Welsh company, an opera in Wales, but also as a nursery for talent for the entire United Kingdom, and in this sense the company is more than a Welsh asset; it is a national asset.

In the hills around Dolgellau there is gold. It is not mined at present because it is not worth while for people to mine it. If the mining of the gold there became a more profitable enterprise, people would mine it. If opera were to become a more popular and financially successful form of art, some of the operatic gold which still lies buried in the hills and valleys of Wales would be extracted. This would be greatly to the benefit of the musical public, not only in Wales and the United Kingdom but in the entire world, as patrons of opera houses throughout the world have found in listening to Welsh singers.

Therefore, I wish the Bill every possible success and a swift passage into law.

1.42 p.m.

Mr. Philip Holland (Carlton)

Mr. Deputy Speaker, with your connivance, collusion and co-operation, I should like to follow the precedent set by some of my hon. Friends who are Members for English constituencies and accord my good wishes to the Bill. I do so not because I am a Welsh Member for an English seat, or an English Member for a Welsh seat but, I confess, merely because I am an English Member for an English seat who has a certain sentimental attachment to the Principality. To show that that is the reason for my great interest in the Bill, I should like to take the House, briefly, on a short sentimental journey, a journey which, I assure you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, in its main point is wholly relevant to the Welsh National Opera Company. The journey starts on the threshold of the New Theatre, Cardiff, and ends at the feet of the personification of Welsh opera.

During the Second World War I had my first date with the girl who later became my wife, and I took her to the New Theatre in Cardiff. It was the first time that we went out together. We were subsequently married at a little church on a wooded hill in Monmouthshire. I know that Monmouthshire is not strictly in Wales, but it is included in the Bill.

After a honeymoon in Tenby, a little further west on the Gower coast, we returned to our first home, which was a flat in the upper half of a house in Cowbridge Road, Cardiff, opposite Tressidet's Nurseries. I hope that they still stand there. The name of the house, if the hon. Member for Gower will permit me to attempt it with my abysmally bad Welsh pronunciation—I hope that I have it aright—was "Can yr Eos". As I am sure that he does not follow my pronunciation, I shall translate it into his second language and my first language. It is, "The Song of the Nightingale'. I hope that I got it not too far wrong.

Mr. Ifor Davies

It was very good.

Mr. Holland

Here I come to my first vicarious contact with Welsh opera. The house had been the home of Madam Clara Novello Davies, and it was the house in which her son, Ivor Novello, was born. It can be well understood that I have a sentimental attachment to Wales and to Welsh singing, which is the branch of the arts in which the Principality excels. It is for that reason that I wish to fulfil a long-held ambition. It has been a long ambition, because during the Parliament of 1959 to 1964 for four years I served on the Welsh Grand Committee, and I served on that Committee mum-chance, hog-tied, listening to discussions about places and names all too familiar to me and for which I had an affection, unable to utter a word because the limited time available belonged, as of right, to colleagues on the Committee who had constituency interests in Wales. I thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for allowing me to catch your eye. I have fulfilled my ambition to intervene in a Welsh debate.

I wish the Bill well. The assistance which the Bill offers will fortify the opera company. The additional financial assistance given to the opera company of Wales, wherever it finds its home and its opera house, will help in the future to find a new Clara Novello Davies to add to the rich heritage of our United Kingdom.

1.48 p.m.

The Minister of State, Welsh Office (Mr. David Gibson-Watt)

This has been a good debate. I am sure that the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Ifor Davies) feels, as I do. Not only was the Bill worth putting forward but, additionally, the fact that we are discussing the Welsh National Opera Company today has enabled the House to debate opera throughout the United Kingdom. On both sides of the House we are grateful to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for allowing us to discuss opera in toto. One cannot discuss opera in Wales without discussing it in the rest of the country, because the Welsh National Opera Company is the largest touring company in the country.

We have had a number of excellent speeches, finishing up with my hon. Friend the Member for Carlton (Mr. Holland), laying bare some of the earlier moments of his private life, taking us on a sentimental journey to Cardiff, and even almost to the details of his honeymoon in Tenby. As he has been good enough to contribute to the debate and to give his support to the Welsh National Opera Company, the hon. Member for Gower and myself would like to invite him back to the Principality. After all, no doubt he would wish to be a subscriber to the Welsh National Opera Company. I assure him that we should give him a very warm welcome in the New Theatre in Cardiff whenever he wishes to come.

Working backwards in the wrong order through the speeches which have been made, my hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Sir A. Meyer) and my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Money) referred to Wales being a nursery for singing talent. There is a great deal in this. Last night, at the City Hall, Cardiff, I was an honoured guest of the Lord Mayor, who was giving hospitality to the Liverymen of London. Following a first-class meal, we were rightly given an excellent entertainment by young men and women and also by a harpist. There are few musical occasions in Wales which cannot be improved by the harp.

My hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich rightly took the opportunity to deal in some detail with the problems of opera in this country. I listened to him very carefully, and I did not disagree with a single one of his main themes. I can give him the firm assurance that I will draw what he has said to the attention of my right hon. and noble Friend the Paymaster-General, who has taken a considerable interest in this art form. I can also tell my hon. Friend, who is secretary of our Party Committee on the Arts and Amenities, that his remarks about high percentage attendances when the Welsh National Opera Company is touring are very near the mark. That is an added reason why the company must have financial support, not only from the source that we are discussing today but from others which are well known.

My hon. Friend also referred to subscriptions from private sources, and from industry. We were all delighted to read in the Western Mail only a week or so ago that, as a result of a subscription list being drawn up, the sum of £32,000 has come from industry and from individuals to the Welsh National Opera Company. That is a source of pleasure to all those interested, but it still does not take away the necessity for support from other directions.

My hon. Friend also said that he wished that the Bill had covered the whole United Kingdom. In saying that, he gave great credit to the hon. Member for Gower, who has got in first. I shall not be accused of speaking as a nationalist if I remind the House that on a number of matters Wales is accustomed to getting in first. For example, with the Welsh Elementary Act of 1882, they beat their friends across the border. There have been other occasions on the sporting field since to which I need not refer today.

I want to refer to one other matter raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich, and that concerns his remarks about the orchestra. When we speak of an opera company, we are not discussing just individual singers and the chorale. We are considering the problems of the orchestra as well. Earlier in the debate, my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Thanet (Mr. Rees-Davies) made a speech which, quite rightly, was largely intended to show that the proper use and expansion of this art form in our country can be of help commercially to tourism. I agree with much of what he said. I say only that the opening night at the New Theatre, Cardiff, on Monday was attended by the hon. Member for Gower and me, among others, and also by the Chairman of the Welsh Tourist Board, Mr. Mervyn Jones. I think that it is fair to say that those responsible for tourism in Wales are very keen on opera as well.

The hon. Member for Gower has produced a Bill which has had overwhelming support from many quarters. There were over 20 Welsh hon. Members present in Committee to support his Bill. As the right hon. Member for Caernarvon (Mr. Goronwy Roberts) said: …every point in the compass of Wales has paid its meed of tribute"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee E, 7th April, 1971, c. 31.] to the hon. Member for Gower. Today, is it fair to say that every point of the compass of England as well has paid that tribute. It is not surprising that the Bill has been well received, because the company has a record second to none and rightly deserves its high position in the minds and hearts not only of the Welsh people but of many thousands of others throughout the United Kingdom.

Overseas, too, singers from the company have advertised the fact that in Wales there is an abundant source of talent backed by choirs, singers and eisteddfordau. Today, on Third Reading, it is clear that a number of hon. Members did not wish this opportunity to pass without paying tribute to the objective of the Bill, which is to allow local authorities in England and Wales to subscribe to the funds of the Welsh National Opera Company.

Not all the speeches that we have heard have come from Welsh Members, as I have said. When I first saw the Motion on the Order Paper, I thought that possibly it was inimical to the Bill. However, when I saw the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Conway (Mr. Wyn Roberts), I realised that all must be well, because I know that coming as he does from a North Wales constituency, he has as great a love of opera and of the National Company as any man I know. I was told that other hon. Members wished to contribute to the debate in order to underline the importance that they feel that the Bill has.

It is good to hear the heartening and helpful comments of so many hon. Members about the company. No professional company of this sort can continue to succeed and produce new works unless it can command large sums of money. As hon. Members have pointed out, these funds can come only from three main sources: from funds provided through the Arts Council of Great Britain, decided in conjunction with the Welsh Arts Council; from a number of private subscribers and industries who have been faithful to the company; and from local authorities.

I will not dwell at length on the main theme of the Bill. It has been well explained already. The season started on Monday. Anyone who has seen that production will have every reason to hope that it will be a good season.

The company cannot plan ahead without sufficient funds. It is therefore right that the three sources of funds to which I have referred should be encouraged as much as possible.

The Bill make its legal for local authorities, both in England and in Wales, to contribute. The fact that so many hon. Members have supported the Bill on Third Reading and throughout its various stages shows the general regard which the public and we in this House have for the Welsh National Opera Company.

The Welsh National Opera Company has many friends. As its touring programme in England expands—it is already considerable; nine weeks last year—it will increase its following in the great cities of England, and the citizens of those cities will be able to play their part, as indeed will their counterparts in Wales. Proud as we are of our opera company we cannot and would not wish to keep it all in Wales. We wish to spread it throughout England, too. I close on this note, ac yn Cadw Cymru yn fôr o gân. We would wish also to make England a sea of song.

The Government, therefore, are right to give their full support to the Bill introduced by the hon. Member for Gower and supported by so many hon. Members on both sides of the House.

Question put and agreed.

Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.