HC Deb 01 April 1971 vol 814 cc1678-81
Mr. Lipton

(by Private Notice) asked the Lord President of the Council why the firm of J. Lyons Ltd. is taking over the Refreshment Department, and if he will make a statement.

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. William Whitelaw)

Messrs. J. Lyons Ltd. is not taking over the Refreshment Department, but I understand that Versa-Serve Ltd., a subsidiary of J. Lyons, has been asked to make an investigation of the Refreshment Department's methods of administration, and to advise the Catering Sub-Committee.

Mr. Lipton

Is it not a gross contempt of this House that a decision of this kind should have been taken without any consultation having taken place with hon. Members who are entitled to be consulted? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that for the hon. Member for Gosport and Fareham (Dr. Bennett) to have made a statement on the subject on "The World at One" today thereby added to the contempt with which the House of Commons is being treated?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we are entitled to know what effect this decision will have on, for example, the staff of the Refreshment Department, on the prices that are likely to be charged, and on many other matters which must be discussed by this House before even a decision to invite anybody to investigate the affairs of the Refreshment Department is taken?

Mr. Whitelaw

I do not think that that is exactly the position. After all, this House has given the Catering Sub-Committee the task of running the catering in the House. I wish to make it absolutely clear that whatever arrangements the Sub-Committee makes, remembering that it is perfectly entitled to make them, complete control will remain in the hands of the Sub-Committee.

Mr. Peart

I hope the Lord President will appreciate, before any major change is made in catering arrangements or management, that the Services Committee has the final authority. Furthermore, there must finally be a decision by the House, not by a little Sub-Committee.

Mr. Whitelaw

A similar arrangement was made under the Labour Government by the then Chairman of the Catering Sub-Committee without even referring it —[Interruption.]—when Mr. Robert Maxwell invited Messrs. Fortes to advise the Sub-Committee.

Mr. Peart

The right hon. Gentleman misunderstood my question. I was saying that before any major decision is taken about changing the system it must be a matter for the House as well as for the Services Committee.

Mr. Whitelaw

I am sorry if I misunderstood the right hon. Gentleman; if I did, I apologise. I made it clear earlier that complete control will remain in the hands of the Catering Sub-Committee and that no such change as has been suggested is taking place.

Mr. Jopling

Would my right hon. Friend agree that one reason why the Catering Department seems to be in permanent financial difficulty is because the facilities and staff are not used during the parliamentary recesses? Will he suggest to the firm carrying out this investigation that it should look at the possibility of the facilities being used by the general public when the House is not sitting?

Mr. Whitelaw

I should make it perfectly clear that these matters are entirely the concern of the Catering Sub-Committee, which has autonomy in this sphere. I am sure that the Sub-Committee will consider that suggestion. As I said, this and other matters are for it and not for me.

Mr. C. Pannell

Will the right hon. Gentleman take a cool hard look not only at the present problem but at the continuing one which has existed in the 22 years that I have been here? [Laughter] I must ask the right hon. Gentleman to discipline his hon. Friends—

Sir G. Nabarro

Oh dear!

Mr. Pannell

—and particularly the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro).

Will the Leader of the House bear in mind that no catering department can make a profit when its activities are based on one or two meals at odd times during the day or night; also that every factory canteen is subsidised? Above all, will he bear in mind that the catering facilities for hon. Members which must be provided at odd times, frequently throughout the 24 hours, are part of the services of the House? Is he aware that in the past the Catering Department has suffered not from too few consultants but from far too many? Such an investigation was made under Mr. Robert Maxwell without the position being advanced. I urge the right hon. Gentleman to look at this matter in a House of Commons context, away from the control of the Treasury.

Mr. Whitelaw

I have noted the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman and I appreciate that he has taken a considerable interest in these matters. Detailed questions concerning the running of the catering facilities in the House are completely in the hands of the Catering Sub-Committee. This has been laid down. Naturally the Sub-Committee reports to the Services Committee, of which I am Chairman, on matters of the broadest policy. The Services Committee can certainly consider these matters, though not on points of detail. I am sure that the right hon. Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell) appreciates and accepts that.

Sir R. Cary

Surely catering in the House of Commons is a domestic matter for Members of the House and it would be wrong to throw it open to the public?

Mr. Whitelaw

I have made it absolutely clear, and I would like to make it abundantly clear—to the House, to our staff, to whom we are considerably indebted, and to everyone else—that complete control over catering will remain in the hands of the Catering Sub-Committee.

Mr. David Steel

The Lord President has correctly said that this is not the first time that professional consultants have been called in. May I suggest to him, with all due respect to those of our colleagues who work hard on the Catering Sub-Committee, that perhaps the time has come to consider the philosophy of hiving off in this connection and whether it would not be a good idea to consider placing a contract with outside caterers?

Hon. Members

No.

Mr. Whitelaw

It seems that this is a matter of considerable controversy, but I note what the hon. Gentleman says.

Mr. Rost

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a good deal of uncertainty and anxiety amongst the staff following a meeting which apparently took place last night at which they were informed that the Catering Manager had been dismissed and that Joe Lyons was taking over? Can we have an assurance that nothing will be done which will undermine the morale of the staff, particularly in view of the tremendously hard work they put in and the loyalty which they displayed in recent weeks?

Mr. Whitelaw

If anybody will pay attention to my remarks, I must repeat them. Complete control will remain in the hands of the Catering Sub-Committee and I hope that that message will get broadcast as widely as it can be throughout all the quarters concerned.