European Free Trade Association

HC Deb 30 November 1970 vol 807 cc880-9

13. Mrs. Renée Short

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry whether he will publish more up-to-date pamphlets about the record of the European Free Trade Association.

Mr. Noble

These are the responsibility of the E.F.T.A. Secretariat in Geneva. Up-to-date records are published in the Secretariat's Bulletin and in E.F.T.A. annual reports. In the United Kingdom these and other publications are available free on request from the Department's E.F.T.A. Information Centre.

Mrs. Short

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that reply. I see these bulletins and publications regularly. But as there appears to be a conspiracy of silence by successive Governments about the achievements of E.F.T.A. and the increase in E.F.T.A. trade, may I ask whether the Minister thinks that at this time, when the Common Market negotiations are becoming more crucial, it would be a matter of fair balance if his Department were to take some initiative?

Mr. Noble

I am delighted to hear that the hon. Lady reads the E.F.T.A. bulletins with such care. There has indeed been a remarkable increase in trade with E.F.T.A. I cannot speak for the former Government, but we have certainly used this success on a number of occasions in speeches and in other ways. It is almost exactly comparable with the increase in trade with the E.E.C. in percentage terms.

14. Mrs. Renée Short

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry whether he will make a statement on the recent European Free Trade Association conference at Geneva, which he attended.

28. Mr. Fell

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry whether he will make a statement on his visit to the European Free Trade Association Conference at Geneva.

Mr. Noble

I would refer the hon. Members to the reply that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry gave to my hon. Friend the Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Kenneth Baker) on 10th November.—[Vol. 806, c. 116–17.]

Mrs. Short

As the communiqué issued after the meeting clearly indicates that the E.F.T.A. countries are anxious to continue the liberalisation of world trade and to support G.A.T.T. as a means of doing this, is it not clear that the aims and objects of the Government in getting into the Common Market on any terms at all conflict with the liberalisation of world trade? Does the Minister think, therefore, that either our representatives at E.F.T.A. meetings should be changed or, better still, we should stop this attempt to get into the Common Market?

Mr. Noble

Having attended the E.F.T.A. Conference for the first time, I can assure the hon. Lady that this was not the view expressed by any E.F.T.A. country during the course of the two days.

Mrs. Short

What was not?

Mr. Noble

There was a great deal—

Mrs. Short

What was not?

Mr. Speaker

Order.

Mr. Noble

The view expressed by the hon. Lady, that we should give up any attempt to get into the Common Market to do better with the E.F.T.A. countries. All the countries concerned were very much interested in the way that our negotiations were proceeding, and most were looking forward to having their own negotiations in the following few weeks. I think that every country there felt that there was an enormous potential for increased European trade as a whole.

Mr. Jay

In view of the increase in E.F.T.A. trade, to which the Minister referred, and the great value of E.F.T.A. to this country, will the right hon. Gentleman at least give an assurance that the Government will not reach any settlement with the E.E.C. which would involve the re-erection of tariff barriers between this country and other members of E.F.T.A.?

Mr. Noble

The right hon. Gentleman knows about E.F.T.A. and other matters sufficiently well to realise that that is an assurance which I could not conceivably give at this stage.

Mrs. Short

Why not? Are they to be sold down the river, too?

Mr. Noble

It is certainly true, as I said to the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, North-East (Mrs. Renée Short), that all the countries concerned realise the enormous advantage which would come to European trade as a whole if suitable negotiations could be made all round.

Mr. Marten

Is not the answer to this problem, which the House goes on and on discussing, a free trade area between the Six and the Seven?

Mr. Noble

This may well be my hon. Friend's answer, but it is not being discussed anywhere at the moment.

An Hon. Member

Why not?

Mr. Mason

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House how he is keeping the E.F.T.A. countries informed of progress in our negotiations with the E.E.C.?

Mr. Noble

If the right hon. Gentleman had studied the answer given a short time ago by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, he would have seen that we gave full details to all the E.F.T.A. countries at the E.F.T.A. Council meeting on how the negotiations were going on, and these continue regularly, apart from Ministerial meetings.

15. Mr. Biggs-Davison

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry whether he will state the subjects of common interest that have been discussed in the last 12 months by member countries of the European Free Trade Association.

Mr. Noble

In addition to the twice-yearly Ministerial meeting, the E.F.T.A. Council meets weekly to discuss the wide range of subjects of common interest to members. The more important in the past year have included wider economic integration in Europe, international trade policy, Icelandic accession to E.F.T.A. and new measures to improve further the smooth working of the free trade area.

Mr. Biggs-Davison

Have not patents, company law and taxation also been discussed? Does not my right hon. Friend's reply show that E.F.T.A. is more than a mere organisation for removing tariffs between members? Have not Her Majesty's Government given an assurance that all the trading and other benefits which have been achieved within E.F.T.A. will, so far as possible, be retained when an agreement is reached with the Community?

Mr. Noble

"If an agreement is reached with the Community", is, I am sure, what my hon. Friend wanted to say, Many of the points which he has mentioned have been discussed in E.F.T.A., such as company law. In trying to keep the answer short, I could not go into complete detail; but I assure my hon. Friend that it is the desire of everybody in E.F.T.A. to maintain the impetus which we have achieved over the last 10 years in the best possible way in the coming years.

Mr. Milne

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that E.F.T.A. still represents our major foothold in Europe? As Sweden has not made application for membership and Norway's application is unlikely to be supported in that country, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman to ensure that our E.F.T.A. links are maintained both before we go into the Common Market and after, if we do?

Mr. Noble

Our trade with the E.E.C. countries is 50 per cent. greater than with the E.F.T.A. countries, though both are extremely satisfactory from our point of view. I cannot do more than repeat what I have already said; that it is the aim of the E.F.T.A. Council, in the course of the negotiations in which so many of the member countries are involved in one form or another, to increase the total of European trade in the most satisfactory manner.

16. Mr. Moyle

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry whether he will make a statement upon the result of Iceland joining the European Free Trade Association.

Mr. Noble

Since Iceland only joined E.F.T.A. on 1st March, 1970, it is much too soon to expect any reliable indication of the results of her accession. But Iceland's trade with her E.F.T.A. partners in the first nine months of this year has shown a substantial and welcome increase in both directions.

Mr. Moyle

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that one feature of Iceland's joining the E.F.T.A. has been the long transitional period given to her? Does he not also agree that this is welcome? Will he see that it becomes a principle of wide application in international trade negotiations?

Mr. Noble

The point is taken but I think the hon. Gentleman will accept that Iceland is not perhaps normal as an industrial country.

Mr. Wall

Has Iceland's joining E.F.T.A. had any adverse effect on the British fishing industry?

Mr. Noble

I think it is true to say that there has been no adverse effect and that the total amount of fillets from Iceland comes within the Scandinavian total.

17. Mr. Moyle

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry by what percentage has trade increased between the member countries of the European Free Trade Association since it was established.

Mr. Noble

In terms of U.S. dollars, intra-trade of the European Free Trade Association, as measured by exports, increased by 143 per cent. between 1960 and 1969.

Mr. Moyle

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that this compares favourably with intra-Common Market trade? Why have the Government not already proposed at Brussels that even in the event of a successful outcome of the negotiations no tariff barriers will be allowed to exist between the Common Market and the E.F.T.A. countries, whether they are in or out of the Common Market?

Mr. Noble

The hon. Gentleman is quite correct that it compares favourably; indeed, there has been almost exactly the same percentage increase as with the E.E.C. I have no doubt that if there had been no tariff barriers our trade with the E.E.C. countries would have been greatly increased. But the second part of his supplementary question is quite separate and not one for answer today.

Mr. Lane

Arising from all these questions, can my right hon. Friend remind hon. Members opposite by how much more our own national wealth would have increased if we had been members of the Common Market during the last 10 years compared with the present situation?

Mr. Noble

That is a hypothetical question but our trade with both E.F.T.A. and the E.E.C. has increased in almost exactly the same proportion over the last 10 years, and there is at least a reasonable basis for the assumption that if there had been no trade barriers with the Community our trade with it would have been very much greater.

Mr. Sheldon

Is not the reality of this whole business the fact that E.F.T.A. is a free trade area which ignores agriculture, and also, incidentally, certain manufactured goods? Is it not a fact that this strong limitation prevents it going any further—a fact recognised by the E.F.T.A. Council itself—and that it is useless to think of E.F.T.A. as anything like an alternative? Has it not reached the end of the road—a pity, but there it is? Is this fact not recognised by the E.F.T.A. Council itself in the applications that members have put in?

Mr. Speaker

Order. A lengthy supplementary question means that another supplementary question may have to be cut out.

Mr. Noble

In reply to the hon. Gentleman, the two things are not comparable and it is dangerous to draw analogies from one to another.

20. Mr. English

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry whether he will make a statement on the development of trade that has taken place between the European Free Trade Association and the European Economic Community.

Mr. John Davies

Trade between the two groups doubled in terms of U.S. dollars between 1960 and 1969 and has continued to rise strongly this year. This trade has, however, increased less than trade within each group.

Mr. English

Will the right hon. Gentleman give his reasons for believing that a junction between some of the E.F.T.A. group, the destruction of E.F.T.A. and the addition of some of the E.F.T.A. countries to the E.E.C. will increase British trade with the tariff barriers involved?

Mr. Davies

As my right hon. Friend said just now, the position and the advantages which the E.F.T.A. Agreement contains are sought to be preserved within the framework of the current negotiations with the Community. It is a fact that the Community's tendency to maintain the impetus of intra-trading is perhaps greater than that of E.F.T.A.

Mr. Marten

Is not this country really after maximising its world trade, and is not its E.E.C. trade only 20 per cent. of its whole trade? Should we not look at the whole thing the Community, E.F.T.A. and the world—in one way?

Mr. Davies

Our whole purpose is to increase our total world trade. A considerable step towards that increase would be attained by negotiating suitable terms with the Community—and I emphasise the words "suitable terms". They have a very great bearing on this.

21. Mr. Body

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what progress has been made within the European Free Trade Association drafting schemes of reciprocal recognition in the testing of equipment, plant and machinery.

Mr. Noble

The E.F.T.A. Council is giving final consideration to a scheme covering pressure vessels. Expert groups are making good progress in drafting schemes for gas appliances, marine safety equipment and agricultural machinery.

Mr. Body

Does not this progress clearly indicate that, having eliminated tariffs, E.F.T.A. is now capable of eliminating the non-tariff barriers to trade? Is not this the answer to the hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon)?

Mr. Noble

This is a very satisfactory development but I agree that non-tariff barriers are the main purpose at the moment of the E.F.T.A. Council deliberations.

23. Mr. English

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry whether he will give more publicity to the removal of non-tariff barriers to trade now being made by the European Free Trade Association.

22. Mr. Alfred Morris

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what steps are being taken by the member countries of the European Free Trade Association to remove non-tariff barriers to trade.

Mr. Noble

Recognising the seriousness of non-tariff barriers to trade, E.F.T.A. is keeping under review its rules of competition and working to reduce technical barriers. Agreements have recently been reached on pharmaceuticals and pressure vessels, and others are in preparation. Every effort is made by the Department and by the E.F.T.A. Secretariat to publicise progress in these fields.

Mr. English

Is it not the case that the progress made in this direction by E.F.T.A. is greater than that being made throughout the rest of the world with regard to such barriers?

Mr. Noble

I cannot say with certainty about that, but in E.F.T.A., where a very close relationship has been built up over the last 10 years with our partners, we are getting on very well.

Mr. Biffen

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that no reasonable person can any longer maintain that Greenwich Mean Time is a non-tariff barrier to trade?

Mr. Noble

Yes, Sir.

Mr. Eadie

We have had some contradictory answers from the Government today. The right hon. Gentleman has told us that E.F.T.A. is a fine organisation, but he will not promise that there will be no dismantling of it, and that the E.E.C. has 50 per cent. more trade. Is it not ludicrous that we should be told this sort of thing today? Does he not agree that since the majority of our people are against the Common Market, a statement should be made by the Government reflecting the opinion of the British people?

Mr. Noble

I cannot agree with the last point made by the hon. Gentleman but I can agree that E.F.T.A. has been extremely successful. But saying that does not, to my mind, conflict with saying that we should move from a successful E.F.T.A., if we can, to a very much more successful trading partnership with the whole of Europe.

24. Mr. Pavitt

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry on how many occasions in the last 12 months has any member of the European Free Trade Association invoked the escape or safeguard clauses.

Mr. Noble

None, Sir.

Mr. Pavitt

Is not there a remarkable contrast between the outward-looking approach of E.F.T.A. and the inward-looking approach of E.E.C.? In the light of that fact, will not the Government review their whole approach to the question of applying to join the E.E.C., especially in the light of the pressure of G.A.T.T. and other pressures on tariffs?

Mr. Noble

No, Sir. The question cannot be considered on such a narrow basis. As I have said, E.F.T.A. has been extremely successful, and from it we hope to build even greater success on a wider basis.

25. Mr. Pavitt

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what steps he is taking to promote the distribution of the European Free Trade Association Bulletin.

Mr. Noble

The Bulletin's distribution is promoted by the Department's E.F.T.A. Information Centre. Present circulation of each issue in the United Kingdom is over 14,000 copies, compared with about 9,000 four years ago.

Mr. Pavitt

Is the Minister aware that the wastepaper baskets of hon. Members are full of millions of pounds' worth of E.E.C. propaganda, whereas only 14,000 of these E.F.T.A. pamphlets are reaching hon. Members? Will not he do his duty by the House and ensure that we have as much information about E.F.T.A. as the tripe that we are getting about the E.E.C.?

Mr. Noble

I hope that the hon. Member will get in touch with his hon. Friend who asked a Question earlier, who found the E.E.C. material extremely valuable. I confirm that many of these documents are going not just to Members of Parliament but to industry, and all over the country. There has been a considerable increase in the demand for them. I am certain that they are useful, and that most are read.

30. Mr. Arthur Lewis

asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what representations were made to him about the United Kingdom's import deposit scheme at the last European Free Trade Association meeting of Ministers.

Mr. Noble

None, Sir.

Mr. Lewis

Does that reply mean that there have been no comments, adverse or otherwise—no remarks at all? Does it mean that the E.F.T.A. countries agree that the import deposit scheme should remain in force, or do they think that it should be terminated?

Mr. Noble

The Question concerned the last meeting of the European Free Trade Association—the one that I was at. My answer reflects exactly, shortly and accurately what was said then.