§ Q5. Mr. Martenasked the Prime Minister what plans he has for a meeting with the Trades Union Congress.
§ Q8. Mr. John Fraserasked the Prime Minister what plans he has to meet leaders of the Trades' Union Congress to discuss Government policy as it affects trade unions.
§ The Prime MinisterI have no such plans at present.
§ Mr. MartenIn the meantime, will the Prime Minister take the first opportunity to associate himself with and support the T.U.C. in its condemnation of the protest strikes planned by militant trade unions for 8th December, and particularly in the light of Lord Robens' remarks?
§ The Prime MinisterI would, of course, willingly endorse what the T.U.C. has said in condemnation of such proposed strikes on 8th December against the industrial relations legislation. I should have thought it quite plain that what the House could not tolerate was any attempt to dictate by industrial action what we should do, against the expressed wishes of the electorate, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition and his colleagues would take the same view.
§ Mr. FraserDoes not the Prime Minister realise that the co-operation of the trade union movement is necessary for the economic success of the country, and that his proposed industrial relations legislation will embitter the T.U.C. and make industrial relations far worse? Will he not again consult the trade unions, whose co-operation is so necessary?
§ The Prime MinisterI do not accept the hon. Gentleman's conclusions about the impact of the industrial relations legislation on the T.U.C., which is well aware of our willingness and, indeed, our desire 614 to co-operate with the trade unions. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I expressed that desire personally to Mr. Victor Feather very soon after this Administration came into office, and the whole T.U.C. knows the position.
§ Mr. Harold WilsonIn view of the right hon. Gentleman's kind invitation to me a moment ago, may I ask whether he is aware that I have made it clear that I support the T.U.C.'s own methods of dealing with the question, as I am sure he does? [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I speak of dealing with the question of unofficial strikes for political purposes.
Since the right hon. Gentleman has further, and gratuitously, accused me in this House of invoking unofficial strikers in relation to wage claims, is he aware that while he made an appeal to the miners in the smug complacency of the Guildhall I made an appeal to the South Wales miners in the presence of many of my hon. Friends in Cardiff?
§ The Prime MinisterI should have thought that the right hon. Gentleman, from his own experience as a Prime Minister, would have been the last to sneer at the Lord Mayor's Banquet, at which he himself has spoken regularly. The Lord Mayor's Banquet is an official function to which the Prime Minister of the day has been invited for many decades. I am perfectly prepared to express in any part of the country my views about industrial action.
§ Mr. James HamiltonIf the Prime Minister is so very keen to have the co-operation of the T.U.C. will he, when he meets the General Secretary of the T.U.C., Mr. Vic Feather, take cognisance of the action taken by the T.U.C. since the many talks it had with the previous Government and, on the basis of the success with which the T.U.C. has met, will he now recognise that it is the appropriate body to deal with industrial problems? If he does so, he will then depart from the miserable Bill which the Government intend to introduce.
§ The Prime MinisterIf "success" means securing the capitulation of the elected Government of the country, the recently elected Administration, that sort of success is unwelcome. The electorate has made its decision, and we shall carry it through.
§ Mr. David JamesAs I have been out of the House for six years and am therefore rather bemused by these matters, can the Prime Minister explain the extraordinary discrepancy there is between what the Leader of the Opposition was saying 18 months ago and what he is saying today?
§ The Prime MinisterThat is something which the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition has himself been trying to explain for 18 months.
§ Mr. Harold WilsonAs the right hon. Gentleman has told us that he wants to keep the co-operation of the T.U.C. in these matters, despite all the provocative acts of the Government directed in the opposite direction, will he not at any rate concede that in the matter of inter-union disputes—the who-does-what disputes, and all the rest—very firm direction was given by the T.U.C.; and that the number of such disputes has fallen to a very small fraction as a result of T.U.C. action? Does he agree or not?
Further, is he aware—and, if he is not, will he get the information and lay it before the House—of the number of disputes, official and unofficial, which have been solved as a result of the direct action of Mr. Feather of the T.U.C., even if neither Mr. Feather, nor the present Government nor anyone else can solve them all?
§ The Prime MinisterI welcome any action which the T.U.C. has been able to take in dealing with disputes, inter-union or not. What the right hon. Gentleman cannot deny is that the days and production lost through industrial disputes during the last year has been much greater, despite anything the T.U.C. has been able to do. We, as the Government, have offered consultation with the T.U.C. on the document which we are to debate today and it was the T.U.C. which refused the consultation offered to it.
§ Mr. SwainIs the Prime Minister aware that the last time the workers marched on the streets with banners flying was in 1926, as a result of his party's policies at that time; and that I hope that very soon the people will be marching on the streets again?
§ The Prime MinisterThe hon. Gentleman has already been repudiated by his own Leader.
§ Mr. SpeakerMr. Marten.
§ Mr. MartenIs it not patently clear that the Opposition appear to be stirring up trouble in a quite unconstitutional way outside the House?
§ The Prime MinisterI hope that that is not the case. It is perfectly possible for us to have differences of view about legislation, and particularly about legislation affecting industrial relations, but in a democracy there is no justification for anyone using industrial action against a Parliament properly elected, as this Parliament has been.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. By negligence, I called on the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten) to ask a second supplementary question. I should not have done so.