HC Deb 19 November 1970 vol 806 cc1408-10
14. Mrs. Castle

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many universities and polytechnics there are in the North-West, North-East and Midlands Regions, respectively; and what is the population in each case.

Mr. van Straubenzee

Eight in the North-West Economic Planning Region, five in the Northern Region and 12 in the East and the West Midlands Regions. The populations in 1969 were approximately 6.8 millions, 3.3 millions and 8.5 millions respectively.

Mrs. Castle

Is it not clear from these figures that the North-West Region does not get its full and fair share of facilities for further education and higher education? Could the hon. Gentleman say when it is intended to extend these facilities, and will he particularly look at the needs of North-East Lancashire, which has not a single polytechnic? Will he ask his right hon. Friend to give us an assurance that the advanced courses in Blackburn will be retained as the basis on which a polytechnic in North-East Lancashire could in due course be built?

Mr. van Straubenzee

If the right hon. Lady will look at the statistics she will find that her conclusion is not right, particularly if she is thinking of students-to-population. I hope she will agree that both the universities and the polytechnics should be regarded in a national context.

Mrs. Castle

But could I have a reply to my question about the polytechnic in North-East Lancashire and the advanced courses in Blackburn?

Mr. van Straubenzee

My right hon. Friend has no intention at present of designating polytechnics additional to those which have been publicly announced, but obviously the claim put forward by the right hon. Lady will be seriously considered in the event of that being so.

Mr. Alan Williams

Would the hon. Gentlemen bear in mind that there are already in existence in Blackburn first-class business study facilities, that Blackburn is itself a major headquarter centre for many firms in the region; and that it seems appropriate, in view of the management training needs in Blackburn, that the management study section should be preserved?

Mr. van Straubenzee

Yes, but the hon. Gentleman will be aware that there was widespread agreement with the proposal announced in August by my right hon. Friend.

Mr. Arthur Lewis

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I give notice that I intend to raise a point or order at the end of Questions.

30. Mr. Alec Jones

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether she will take steps to set up a clearing house organisation for students seeking admission to polytechnics.

Mr. van Straubenzee

This idea has been under discussion, but there are certain difficulties. It is primarily for the polytechnic authorities themselves to consider what might be practicable.

Mr. Jones

Does the hon. Gentleman appreciate that many students who have failed to secure admission to universities are anxious to get into these polytechnics, and that it is extremely difficult, unless we establish some kind of clearing house, for these students to know the number of places available in the polytechnics?

Mr. van Straubenzee

I am not hostile to what the hon. Gentleman is seeking to do. But I put it to him that there are problems with a clearing house procedure in any way analogous to that of the universities. For example, we must consider whether it should simply cover degree course work only. This is the kind of problem which makes it so much more difficult.

Mr. Alan Williams

This is an important practical problem. Will the Minister at least initiate discussions on the practicality and need for such a clearing house?

Mr. van Straubenzee

We are certainly receptive to any practical ideas. The hon. Gentleman has great experience and knows the problems of dealing with polytechnics.

35. Mr. Lane

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what are her plans for further expansion of polytechnics during the next five years.

Mrs. Thatcher

The polytechnics will certainly be expanded but the rate at which this will be possible during the next five years will depend on the Government's decisions about the development of higher education.

Mr. Lane

Does my right hon. Friend accept that there are strong reasons, in the development of higher education generally, for a large part of the growth to be in the polytechnics, thus easing somewhat the strain of expansion in the universities?

Mrs. Thatcher

I accept that a good portion of the growth will come in the polytechnics. With this in mind there is a good building programme going ahead at the moment.

Mr. Kinnock

While I am happy to hear the Secretary of State speak of the expansion of polytechnic facilities, may I ask whether she will tell us, with reference to an earlier Question, how she will ensure the maximum use of facilities at those polytechnics if her Department does not take steps to ensure that as many qualified students as possible know about the places available at polytechnics?

Mrs. Thatcher

When I go round the schools I frequently point out to teachers—particularly those in sixth forms—the need to tell the children more about polytechnics and not always to advise them to go to universities. I believe that the more we do this the better it will be both for the intake to the polytechnics and for those who are eventually coming out to find jobs.