HC Deb 16 November 1970 vol 806 cc834-42
9. Mr. Jay

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will make available to hon. Members the documents presented by Her Majesty's Government to the European Economic Community in July estimating the amounts which would be payable to the European Economic Community budget on the basis of the United Kingdom becoming a member.

Mr. Geoffrey Rippon

I would refer the right hon. Member to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis) on 10th November.—[Vol. 806, c. 120.]

Mr. Jay

Is it not essential that hon. Members should have all the information possible on this crucial issue? What reason is there for keeping this document secret?

Mr. Rippon

I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that the House should have all the information possible. That cannot include confidential exchanges.

Mr. Healey

Were the estimates made by Her Majesty's Government and presented to his colleagues on the negotiating body finally accepted by his interlocutors?

Mr. Rippon

I could not give that information, which is part of the confidential exchanges. We have put in papers indicating the sort of figures that we think would arise. They have replied, and we are still discussing the matter.

10. Mr. Pardoe

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what estimate he has now made of the effect of Great Britain's entry into the Common Market on the United Kingdom's balance of payments; and how far this differs from the latest estimate by the European Commission, which has been given to him.

Mr. Rippon

The effect will depend on the terms which are still being negotiated.

Mr. Pardoe

I thank the right hon. and learned Gentleman for that not particularly helpful reply. Is it not obvious that the original British negotiating position in relation to our balance-of-payments costs of entering the Community were wildly unrealistic? Is it not a fact that this unnecessarily fuels the fires of the anti-European lobby in this country?

Mr. Rippon

The figures varied from the wholly acceptable to the completely unacceptable and the totally improbable. The trouble with so many of these figures is that at various times everything depends on a variety of assumptions; and at this stage we cannot say which is the most or least valid.

13. Mr. Barnes

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the progress of negotiations for Great Britain to join the European Economic Community.

Mr. Rippon

At this stage I have nothing to add to the statement I made to the House on 29th October.—[Vol. 805, c. 439–41.]

Mr. Barnes

In view of the suggestion about a referendum, may I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman to agree that it is most unlikely that a price will come out of the negotiations which is either clearly acceptable or clearly unacceptable? Is it not a fact that there will be many considerations which are impossible to quantify and which are not susceptible to determination by means of a referendum?

Mr. Rippon

I am sure that a referendum would be most unsuitable in this matter. [Interruption.] I refer the House to an Answer given by the Leader of the Opposition on 25th November, 1969, when he was Prime Minister. He said that a referendum on this issue would be contrary to our traditions in this country".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th November, 1969; Vol. 792, c. 199.] He also suggested that Government Ministers who had always put forward this view might resign if they took a contrary view.

Sir D. Walker-Smith

Has my right hon. Friend seen a statement which appeared in The Times recently about the frequency and volume of leaks of information from the countries of the Six about these negotiations? Will he therefore make very frequent announcements to this House so that we may be relieved of the position of inferiority of information vis-à-vis the peoples of those countries?

Mr. Rippon

Those who read The Times should never feel any sense of inferiority. There are informal reports from time to time, and I am always available to answer Questions in the House.

Mr. Shore

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware of certain obvious difficulties we have in making calculations as to where our advantage lies? For example, would he agree that unless he raises certain issues with the Six, such as the implications for Britain of the proposal for an economic and monetary union, we shall never be able to reach a reasonable judgment as to the results of these proposals?

Mr. Rippon

I am sure that there are many issues which will be discussed while these negotiations are going on.

Mr. John Wells

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that the entire fruit-growing industry in this country is extremely anxious because he appears not to have discussed the problems of this industry in any primary negotiations so far? Would he give a categoric assurance that he has this industry's interests and well-being reasonably at heart?

Mr. Rippon

I am happy to give that assurance. In the context of agricultural problems we, of course, discuss horticultural problems as well.

Mr. Moyle

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that when he last reported to the House on this matter he said that agreement had been reached on protecting the bacon, eggs and milk markets of the United Kingdom? Does he agree, on reflection, that that statement was somewhat exaggerated and that, in fact, there is no agreement on the methods by which the bacon, eggs and milk markets of this country will be protected?

Mr. Rippon

I do not suppose that any agreement which we reach could give permanent protection to anybody anywhere. However, what we received were assurances that the procedures which would be followed would protect our interests in the way I set out in that statement.

25. Mr. Bruce-Gardyne

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what consultations he is having with the Governments of the European Economic Community with a view to promotion of closer European unity in the political sphere.

Mr. Rippon

Her Majesty's Government have received from the Federal German Government, in their capacity as Chairman, a copy of the report of the Six Foreign Ministers and we have commented on it.

Mr. Bruce-Gardyne

In view of the excitement created among some right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite, and some commentators outside, by the Werner report on monetary integration, can my right hon. and learned Friend confirm that the pace of monetary integration is bound to be dictated by the pace of political integration, on which the views of the British and French Governments are likely to be fairly identical?

Mr. Rippon

That is certainly so.

Mr. Orme

Is it not a fact that the French Government take a very independent view in relation to the political situation in Europe from that taken by the other five members? Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman like to say something about the views of the French Government at the moment?

Mr. Rippon

I am not answerable for the views of the French Government. At the end of the day they try to take a Community view, but in the course of forming the Community view every member of the Community has the right to express his own opinions, and will do so.

Mr. Healey

Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman explain to the House how he reconciles the Prime Minister's rigid and dogmatic insistence that British foreign policy should be determined exclusively by the narrow view of Britain's national interests with the Prime Minister's simultaneous claim that he is moving towards political integration with Europe, in which British foreign policy will disappear and simply be part of the foreign policy of the Continent as a whole?

Mr. Rippon

It is a British interest, I think accepted by both sides of the House, that we should try to bring the current negotiations to a successful conclusion, believing that British interests and those of the rest of Western Europe are closely bound up together in all fields.

31. Sir G. de Freitas

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will make a statement on the progress of the negotiations for the entry of the United Kingdom into the European Economic Community.

39. Mr. English

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will make a statement on the progress of the negotiations concerning the British application to join the European Economic Community.

45. Mr. Marten

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on negotiations to join the Common Market.

Mr. Rippon

I have nothing to add at this stage to the statement I made to the House on 29th October.—[Vol. 805. c. 439–54.]

Sir G. de Freitas

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that our television and radio programmes and the Press regularly ignore or play down the rôle of the European Parliament? In any statement that he makes will he draw attention to the possibilities of democratic control of the Commission by development of the European Parliament?

Mr. Rippon

That has not arisen in the course of our negotiations. The right hon. Gentleman will remember the Anglo-Italian declaration of 1969, which I think was generally acceptable to the House.

Mr. Wellbeloved

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that there is growing disquiet, on both sides of the House, at the continued refusal of the Government to report regularly the state of negotiations? Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that this growing disquiet is heightened by the statement by the President of the N.F.U. that his union is having regular consultations before and after each visit to the negotiating table at Brussels? Is it not time that the House was put in the same privileged position?

Mr. Rippon

I made a statement after the first Ministerial meeting that I attended. My predecessor made similar statements after the meetings that he attended. There will be another Ministerial meeting on 8th December, and I envisage that I shall be making another statement after that. Meanwhile, I am always available to answer Questions in the House.

38. Mr. Blaker

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a further statement about the position of Hong Kong in relation to the negotiations for entry into the Common Market.

Mr. Rippon

I have nothing to add to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Rankin) on 27th October and to my statement on 29th October. [Vol. 805, c. 64, 439–41.]

Mr. Blaker

Would my right hon. and learned Friend agree that it would be helpful if Hong Kong could be included in the generalised preference arrangements which are being worked out in U.N.C.T.A.D.?

Mr. Rippon

Yes, Sir, and we are continuing to press that point of view.

47. Sir D. Walker-Smith

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has had access to the working paper on political union prepared by M. Davignon, Political Director of the Belgian Foreign Office, and other officials of countries in the European Economic Community; and whether he will make a statement in regard to the degree of consultation and the position taken by Her Majesty's Government in regard to the paper.

59. Mr. Body

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has submitted to the European Economic Community Her Majesty's Government's opinion on the Davignon Report on political unification; and whether he will place copies of both the Report and his opinion in the Library of the House.

Mr. Rippon

There have been full consultations. As I told my hon. Friend the Member for South Angus (Mr. Bruce-Gardyne) earlier, Her Majesty's Government have given the European Economic Community their comments on the Davignon Report. A copy of the Report has been placed in the Library of the House.

Sir D. Walker-Smith

Can my right hon. and learned Friend in this context explain what precisely is the significance of the term "European unity", used more than once by his predecessor in his initial speech to the Community in July, and, in particular, what degree of political element there is in that phrase and with what institutional apparatus he sees effect being given to it?

Mr. Rippon

One must always consider the word "unity", as my hon. and learned Friend will, I am sure, agree, in its context. I should be happy to construe the phrase "political unity" in any way my right hon. and learned Friend likes and on any occasion. However, I do not think that it is possible to give a short answer.

Mr. Body

As we all agree about the importance of the working paper on political unification, is it not quite wrong the only copy in the Library should be in French? This makes it hard for some people, like myself, to read it.

Mr. Rippon

I will certainly see what can be done about that.

50. Mr. Moyle

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent representations Her Majesty's Government has made to the European Economic Community concerning the recently concluded fisheries agreement.

Mr. Rippon

I have nothing to add to the replies given to the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) on 2nd November and to the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Hull, West (Mr. James Johnson) on 27th October.—[Vol. 805, c. 258, 68.]

Mr. Moyle

As the E.E.C. reached agreement on its fisheries policy without reference to the views of the applicant countries, is it not clear that even if the right hon. and learned Gentleman did make representations, the E.E.C. countries would not take much notice of them?

Mr. Rippon

I do not think that it is that clear. Certainly the Six have the right to regulate their own affairs while they are the existing Community. What we have said is that it does not help our negotiations if changes in the positions of the parties take place in the course of them. We have made some pretty strong representations about the likely effect of the fishery regulations if they were applied to us.

Mr. James Johnson

Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman be absolutely candid and tell us where we stand? Is it not a fact that we shall have to take holus-bolus the fishing policy of the Six? There is nothing secret about that. We do not want to fish in their waters, but they want to fish in our waters. Would not their fishery limits give them authority to land fish at ports used by our deep-sea fishing vessels? To what are we committed?

Mr. Rippon

We are not committed to anything; we are not members of the Community. What we have to accept is that a matter like this must be discussed in the course of negotiations. We were asked for our comments and we have given them.

51. Mr. Pardoe

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he has taken in the last four months to give publicity to the political effects of entry into the European Economic Community; and what steps he proposes to take in the future.

Mr. Rippon

It has been made clear on numerous occasions that the Government believe that Europe can emerge as a Community expressing its own point of view and exercising influence in world affairs not only in the commercial and economic but also in the political and defence fields.

Mr. Pardoe

Is not the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that, however successful he is in his negotiations, the acceptability of the terms which he wins will depend on the level of political will among the people of the country? Does he not think that he and his right hon. Friends should get into the country and create this political will?

Mr. Rippon

We have made our general view clear from the outset. I think that the House understands that we are awaiting the outcome of the negotiations. It is only when we have obtained an outcome to the negotiations that we can present to the House and the country the reasons for accepting the result of the negotiations, or admitting their breakdown.