LOCAL AUTHORITY MANUAL WORKERS (DISPUTE) (Hansard, 6 November 1970)

§ The Minister of State, Department of Employment (Mr. Paul Bryan)
May I first of all on behalf of my right hon. Friend apologise for the fact that he is not here. He did not get the message until he was actually on his feet speaking to the Industrial Society and he is now on his way to the House.
I understand that the two sides of the National Joint Council for Local Authority Manual Workers yesterday agreed to accept the recommendations of the Report of the Committee of Inquiry under the chairmanship of Sir Jack Scamp. The unions are recommending the findings to their members, and it is hoped that there will be an early return to work. The Report recommends an increase of 50s. a week for men payable from 9th November, improvements in shift allowances and holiday entitlement.

§ Mrs. Castle
May I first say how sorry I am that the Secretary of State is not here because, I did indicate last night that I was hoping to be allowed to ask this question. We are all delighted that the strike has been settled, although the right hon. Gentleman cannot claim any credit for that. Does not the Minister of State agree that this strike need never have happened if the Secretary of State had allowed the conciliation service of his Department to be used in the normal way, when both sides of the National Joint Council asked that it should be weeks ago? The right hon. Gentleman could have got a settlement then which would certainly not have 1420 been higher than the present one, and might have been even lower. Will the Minister of State get an assurance from his right hon. Friend that this Government will bring no pressure to bear on the local authorities not to carry out this settlement, or any other settlement they may have reached with these manual workers?

§ Mr. Bryan
The result of this strike does not in any way alter our views on the attitude we should have taken. My right hon. Friend still considers his offer to conciliate within the 14 per cent. was the correct thing to do. As to the result of conciliation, it is entirely a matter of speculation.

§ Mrs. Castle
May I say how glad I am that the Secretary of State has now arrived. May I now have the answer to the last part of my question and may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he does not agree that the Government's policy of refusing to go in and conciliate will make the position worse, not better, that it will harden the attitudes of unions and lead in the end to more inflationary settlements?

§ Mr. Bryan
I think the action so far taken by my right hon. Friend has made it known to everyone what our attitude will be and what the policy of the Government is. As to our attitude to this settlement, we have stood back the whole time and left it to the National Joint Council and shall continue to do so.

§ Mr. Thorpe
May we know for which particular aspects of the Government's incomes policy this settlement represents a triumph? May we know when the Government in furtherance of their policy intend to have the next, albeit unsuccessful, confrontation with lower-paid workers?

§ Mr. Bryan
Our policy has been declared a number of times and, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, it is to put the responsibility for settlements fairly and squarely where it should be, on the shoulders of trade unions and employers. What was the second part of the right hon. Gentleman's question?

§ Mr. Thorpe
I wanted to know when we could expect the next confrontation, particularly in view of the Chancellor's clearly expressed view that he thought 1421 that what was being claimed, by the miners, for example, was grossly excessive?

§ Mr. Bryan
I do not think there is anything I can helpfully say about that particular question. We shall deal with all these situations as they arise and in the same way as we have done this time.

§ Mr. Ogden
Is the hon. Gentleman saying that the Government have learned no lessons at all from this dispute and that their policies on industrial relations, wage settlements, prices, productivity and so on are completely unaltered? Are they not even thinking about altering them in the light of present circumstances?

§ Mr. Bryan
A number of lessons are to be learned, not only by the Government. The first lesson to be learned is that an inflationary settlement of any sort brings higher prices, and in this case it will bring them in a particularly direct way because people will have to pay higher rates very soon.

§ Mr. Carter
As some local authorities could have settled quickly for the full amount of 55s. and as the Scamp Report has produced a result of 50s., is it not likely that within a short time most local authorities will be paying the full 55s.? In view of this, could not the Government have settled far earlier on the basis that has now been arrived at, so avoiding the filth and mess that has littered our streets for a number of weeks?

§ Mr. Bryan
Both of those assumptions are entire speculation.

§ Mr. Healey
The Minister of State just said that there were several lessons to be learned, not only by the Government. Would he now tell the House what lessons the Government have learned from this affair?

§ Mr. Bryan
If the right hon. Gentleman would call it a lesson, one is that the Government will remain steadfast on the policy that they have already put forward. Nobody ever expected that this would be an easy victory—[Interruption]—and it will take great courage and steadfastness, and that is what the right hon. Gentleman will get from this Government.

§ Mr. Biggs-Davison
Can my hon. Friend give some impression of when he thinks normal working will be resumed.

§ Mr. Ogden
By the Government?

§ Mr. Bryan
The new payment is payable from 9th November, which is next Monday, and we hope very much that full working will be resumed on that date.

Mr. W. T. Williams
What kind of conciliation do the Government think it is when they declare, even before any conciliation begins, that they intend to work only within the framework already established by the employers? Have the Government learned any lessons from which they can do something to avoid what promises to be a serious and bitter struggle if the miners come out, as it seems they will, all over the country? What action do the Government propose to take to prevent that bitter strike?

§ Mr. Bryan
The answer to the first two parts of that supplementary question, about the sort of conciliation, is that the attitude of my right hon. Friend towards conciliation in this matter was entirely responsible.[Interruption.] That is the word I would use.
The answer to the final part of the supplementary, about a possible miners' strike, is that if strikes, apart from those which are now going on, take place, they will be a matter for my right hon. Friend as the situation develops. I am, therefore, unable to forecast on the subject now.

§ Mr. Ronald Brown
Is the Minister aware that there is real feeling that this strike was aggravated by the fact that the Government were urging the employers side of the N.J.C. to be obdurate in their negotiations? May I draw his attention to the fact that three London boroughs waited six or seven weeks before being satisfied that meaningful negotiations were not being made by the employers side of the N.J.C., and then they decided to settle themselves? Would he give an assurance that although his hon. Friend the Minister for Local Government and Development tried to blackmail these three authorities in these negotiations, that attempt at blackmail will now be withdrawn?

§ Mr. Bryan
The background to the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question 1423 is that the Government have been putting pressure on the employers. All that has been taking place is that the Government have made it known, and have repeated this time and again, that we believe that a settlement of this sort is inflationary and against the national good; and I believe that it is the duty of the Government so to do.

§ Mrs. Castle
Will the Minister now answer the part of my original supplementary question which he did not answer; namely, will he give an assurance that no pressure will be brought to bear on local authorities not to implement this settlement or any individual settlements that they have made?

§ Mr. Bryan
No pressures will be put on the employers by the Government.

§ The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. William Whitelaw)
On a point of order. I am sure that inadvertently the right hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) appeared to suggest that either I or my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment might in some way be accused of discourtesy in that my right hon. Friend had not arrived here in time for the beginning of her Private Notice Question.
The right hon. Lady suggested that she had said yesterday that she would be likely to be putting such a question this morning. I have no knowledge of her saying anything of the sort. She said, in effect yesterday "Will the right hon. Gentleman convey to his right hon. Friend not only that he should consider making a statement about this subject and the deteriorating situation, but also that we expect him to do so at the beginning of next week." Had she told me last night that she would be putting down this Private Notice Question today both my right hon. Friend and I would have been extremely anxious to be here.
I mention this only to make it plain that this is the position. I do not think the right hon. Lady meant to imply any discourtesy on either myself or my right hon. Friend. As my right hon. Friend did arrive, shortly after the question had been asked, I wanted to make the position clear.

§ Mrs. Castle
I am certain that the Secretary of State did not intend any 1424 discourtesy and made every effort to get here on time. I appreciate that he did arrive, even if he was a little late.
I was pointing out that through the usual channels I asked last night that an approach should be made—

§ Mr. Whitelaw
Ah!

§ Mrs. Castle
I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will hear me out. I asked that an approach should be made to the effect that an indication should be given that I should like an assurance that a statement would be made by the right hon. Gentleman and that, failing that, I would wish to table a Private Notice Question. I was informed that the answer was that there was no intention to make a statement. Without wishing to make any allegations against anybody, we will now try to find out what happened, because that is my understanding of what occurred last night—as clearly I would have wished the right hon. Gentleman to have had more notice of my intention to table a Private Notice Question.

§ Mr. Whitelaw
Of course, that would be my purpose, and my right hon. Friend would certainly have wished to have had that notice. I was making it clear to the right hon. Lady, in case she thought that we were being in any way discourteous, that we received no such notice. I, equally, will try to find out what happened.