HC Deb 05 November 1970 vol 805 cc1262-71
Mr. Harold Wilson

May I ask the Leader of the House if he will state the business for next week?

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. William Whitelaw)

Yes, Sir.

The business for next week will be as follows:—

MONDAY, 9TH NOVEMBER—Motions on the Southern Rhodesia Act (Continuation) Order and on the Southern Rhodesia (Matrimonial Jurisdiction) Order.

At Seven o'clock the Chairman of Ways and Means has named Opposed Private Business for consideration.

TUESDAY, 10TH NOVEMBER—Second Reading of the Family Income Supplements Bill.

WEDNESDAY, 11TH NOVEMBER—Second Reading of the Education (Scotland) Bill.

Motions on the Legal Aid (Financial Conditions) Regulations.

THURSDAY, 12TH NOVEMBER—Motion to take note of the Green Paper on Select Committees of the House of Commons (Command No. 4507).

FRIDAY, 13TH NOVEMBER—Second Reading of the Income and Corporation Taxes Bill.

MONDAY, 16TH NOVEMBER—Supply [5th Allotted Day]: Debate on a Motion to take note of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Reports from the Committee of Public Accounts in Session 1969–70, and the related Treasury Minute.

Motion on the Motor Cars (Driving Instructions) (Amendment) Regulations.

Mr. Harold Wilson

May I express my thanks to the right hon. Gentleman for meeting our view that there should be a whole day for the debate on Tuesday of the Family Income Supplements Bill, even though that may have meant some re-arrangement of business which may have caused him some inconvenience?

Mr. Orme

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. It is impossible to hear what is being said.

Mr. Speaker

I think that the microphones and loudspeakers are not working.

Mr. Wilson

In that case I will speak up.

Should there be any Government statement next week, would the right hon. Gentleman do his best to ensure that it is not made on a Friday morning, if that can be avoided? We all understand that sometimes situations develop overnight and make it necessary to have a statement on a Friday morning, but when such a statement is just a further working out of policies which must have been decided some weeks before, will the right hon. Gentleman try to meet the convenience of the House by trying to get it on another day? If they must be made on a Friday, will he take care to ensure that the Opposition and all other hon. Members are notified not an hour before—

Mr. Onslow

As you did.

Mr. Wilson

—but, if possible, a day before the statement is to be made?

Mr. Whitelaw

I should like to thank the right hon. Gentleman for what he has said about a day's debate on the Family Income Supplements Bill. I am glad that we have been able to meet that request.

I accept that statements on Fridays are not convenient for the House and I will do my very best in all circumstances to avoid them. Sometimes it is absolutely inevitable, but if they can be avoided they will be. As for giving notice, I have lived for six years knowing the disadvantages in which the Opposition are placed when told about statements on a Friday morning. No one knows that better than I do and I shall try to give longer notice in future.

Several Hon. Members rose—

Mr. Speaker

I remind the House that we have much business before us and that 70 hon. Members wish to speak in the debate. I hope that we may have a few business questions.

Mr. Jay

Will there be a Government statement next week explaining the Government's policy, as promised, for reducing the cost of living?

Mr. Whitelaw

If there are any statements to be made on that subject, no doubt they will be made; I do not know of any at the moment.

Mr. Swain

Is the right hon. Gentleman in a position at the moment to give the House any understanding of when the Coal Industry Bill will be introduced? If not, will he discuss with his right hon. Friend the urgency of this Bill, so that we may be discussing it at the earliest possible moment.

Mr. Whitelaw

I myself promised that this Bill would be introduced very soon and I therefore have a personal commitment to it. I am most anxious that it should be, and I am doing everything I can to ensure that it is, introduced as urgently as possible.

Mr. Iremonger

Can my right hon. Friend say when we may debate my Motion to expel the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster (Miss Devlin)? [That this House is of the opinion that liberty and justice are nowhere so imperfectly maintained in the United Kingdom as to justify violent breaches of the peace for political motives, least of all by honourable Members of this House, who have sworn allegiance to the Crown on taking their seats; and that, therefore, although an honourable Member might be re-elected if expelled and if so would naturally thereafter be accepted by this House, this House should not tacitly condone violent breaches of the peace for political motives by any honourable Member and that, accordingly, the honourable Member for Mid-Ulster be expelled the House.]

Mr. Whitelaw

I have no suggestions in my mind for that sort of debate.

Mr. Wellbeloved

In view of the statement yesterday about London flood protection, will the right hon. Gentleman consider a debate on this most important subject?

Mr. Whitelaw

I could not give any hope of an opportunity for such a debate in the near future. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the House decided on Tuesday night that there should be more time than in the past for Private Members' Motions, and there would seem to be a good opportunity for a Motion on this subject.

Mr. Dempsey

As more building workers and joiners in Scotland are unemployed at this moment than for many years, and as rising unemployment has become a serious problem, is there any prospect of an early debate on the general unemployment situation in Scotland?

Mr. Whitelaw

I could not promise time for such a debate in the near future, but there are always opportunities for these matters to be debated and I will call the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland to what the right hon. Gentleman has said.

Mr. Orme

What is the Government's intention with regard to the Industrial Relations Bill?

Mr. Whitelaw

As the hon. Gentleman knows, the consultative document has been published. In due course the Bill will be published. When it is published, it will have a Second Reading, and then it will go through the House.

Mr. Marks

May I draw the attention of the Leader of the House to the Motion, which stands in my name and in the names of 100 other hon. Members, asking the Government to increase the National Insurance retirement pension? [That this House calls upon the Government to increase immediately the level of the National Insurance retirement pension.] Will he arrange for a debate and will he remind his right hon. Friends that within six months of taking office the Labour Government raised the pension by 12s. 6d. for a single person and—

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman may ask for a debate, but not argue merits.

Mr. Whitelaw

I have noticed the important Motion to which the hon. Gentleman refers. I will certainly call the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Security to this question.

Mr. Roy Hughes

May I call the attention of the Leader of the House to my Motion No. 86 on social security benefits and hourly-paid members of local authorities? [That this House, concerned at the loss of social security benefits, such as sickness and unemployment benefit, pension rights and redundancy payments, which are suffered by hourly paid workers who are members of local authorities, appreciates the valuable voluntary service that is performed by such individuals, and bearing in mind the need to make local government as representative of the community as possible, urges Her Majesty's Government to take early action to remove this anomaly.] In view of the raw deal which these people are now getting, will he arrange an early debate on the matter in order that it may be properly ventilated?

Mr. Whitelaw

The fact that I do not respond to the hon. Member's views about the treatment accorded to these people is simply because it does not fall within my province to do so at business question time. I could not find time for a debate in the present situation.

Mr. Denis Howell

In view of the statement made outside this House yesterday by the Minister responsible for sport about the serious situation which has developed in sport, would the right hon. Gentleman kindly arrange for the Minister to make a statement inside the House?

Mr. Whitelaw

I did not notice that my hon. Friend said anything which had any serious implications for the future of sport.

Mr. Maclennan

In view of the continued absence of the Secretary of State for Scotland from the House, would the right hon. Gentleman arrange for him to make a statement?

An Hon. Member

On anything.

Mr. Whitelaw

Earlier this afternoon I noticed the Leader of the Opposition and one or two of his right hon. Friends muttering, "Oh, not another statement!" I think the hon. Member ought to discuss with his right hon. Friends the possibility of someone making a statement about nothing in particular. As for the Secretary of State for Scotland, he has been constantly in this House. [HON. MEMBERS: "Where?"] He has had a considerable amount of Scottish business and if there are any hon. Members opposite who are suggesting that my right hon. Friend did not make a statement on housing at the same time as the other housing statement was made, I hope that they will remember the actions of their Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross), who was studiously silent on many other such occasions in the past.

Mr. Arthur Davidson

Would the right hon. Gentleman help to put everyone in Lancashire out of their suspense by arranging for his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment to make a statement about whether the Government are to build a new town in central Lancashire?

Mr. Whitelaw

I will certainly draw the attention of my right hon. Friend to what the hon. Member says, and if there is a statement to be made, no doubt it will be made.

Mr. Carter

Could I draw the attention of the Leader of the House to Early Day Motion No. 84: [That this House, in view of the possible strategic vulnerability of part of Great Britain's fuel oil supplies, as evidenced by Her Majesty's Government's obsessive anxiety to maintain a military presence East of Suez and, at least by South African proxy, in the Indian Ocean, believes that it is essential to maintain a viable coal industry in Great Britain.] As this is a sincere attempt to help the Government out of their difficulties, could he arrange for a debate on this subject?

Mr. Whitelaw

As I promised earlier, the Coal Bill will be introduced at an early stage. No doubt there will be an opportunity then to debate the Second Reading of the Bill as soon as reasonable after its introduction.

Mr. Sillars

May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware of Early Day Motion No. 94: [That this House deplores the fact that, despite the presence of the Secretary of State for Scotland, the statement of policy on Scottish housing subsidies was made on 3rd November by the Secretary of State for the Environment who has no ministerial responsibility on this matter in Scotland; and regards this as deliberately engineered to deny Labour Members of Parliament representing the majority party in Scotland the opportunity to question the Secretary of State for Scotland on policies which the right hon. Member for Moray and Nairn knows are unacceptable to the Scottish people.] I take it from his previous answer that he is aware of this. Will he accept that we do not want the Secretary of State for Scotland to make a statement about nothing but we most certainly want him to make a statement about housing subsidies in Scotland? Does he appreciate that, as Scottish Labour Members of Parliament represent the vast majority of the Scottish electorate, they are entitled to question the Minister responsible for Scottish housing but have been denied the opportunity?

Mr. Whitelaw

All I would say to that is that on all statements about what are United Kingdom matters with which Scotland is concerned we shall follow exactly the same procedure as was laid down by the previous Government.

Mr. John D. Grant

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether there will be a statement on the Government attitude to the findings of the independent committee of inquiry into the local government manual workers dispute?

Mr. Whitelaw

I have nothing to say about that today. If my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment wishes to make a statement on this or any other subject next week, he will no doubt do so.

Mr. Ashton

In view of what the right hon. Gentleman said earlier about the Industrial Relations Bill, would he be prepared to take the Committee stage on the Floor of the House in view of the vast interest there is in the country and among Members in this subject?

Mr. Whitelaw

In accordance with precedent, the hon. Member should wait and see what happens.

Mr. Alec Jones

Would the right hon. Gentleman ask his right hon. and learned Friend the Chairman of the Conservative Party, who happens to be the Secretary of State for Wales, in a part-time capacity, to make a statement to this House on the effect of the Government's measures and cuts as far as they concern Wales?

Mr. Whitelaw

I will certainly note what the right hon. Gentleman says and draw it to the attention of my right hon. and learned Friend. But I certainly do not accept that he is Secretary of State for Wales in a part-time capacity.

Mr. Harold Wilson

Since the former Chairman of the Conservative Party—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speak up."] Since the former Chairman of the Conservative Party, now the Chancellor, thought that it was a full-time job to be chairman of the party, how can the present Secretary of State find time for Wales?

Mr. Whitelaw

Whatever my right hon. Friend the Chancellor may have said about his job, he certainly made a very considerable success of it—[interruption.]—as the right hon. Gentleman was perhaps one of the first to know. As for the Secretary of State for Wales, he is doing both jobs with great success. [Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

The right hon Gentleman must not drift into merits when discussing the question.

Mrs. Castle

Reverting to the point raised earlier about the local government manual workers' strike, will the right hon. Gentleman convey to his right hon. Friend not only that he should consider making a statement about this very serious and deteriorating situation, but also that we would expect him to do so at the beginning of next week?

Mr. Whitelaw

I will certainly note what the right hon. Lady has said and I will call it to the attention of my right hon. Friend. Obviously, in advance of the publication of the report and whatever else may happen, I could not make a firm commitment on this subject. Perhaps I should also apologise for having been drawn further than I should have been on the last question.

Mr. Heffer

On a point of order. For many of us on this side of the House it is quite impossible to hear what is being said. Can we not have the microphones put in order so that we can hear what the Front Bench and others are saying to us?

Mr. Speaker

I gathered from the expressions on the faces of hon. Members that something had happened to the public address equipment. I have sent a message. I cannot intervene from the debate to see that it is done. Whatever needs to be done will be done effectively. We have a lot of work ahead of us.

Mr. Thorpe

Since the Leader of the House is the custodian of the rights of Front and back bench Members, and without going into any particular case, and making full allowance for the fact that some Ministers have not perhaps been in this House as long as they might wish, can he try to persuade all of his Ministerial colleagues to realise that when they are winding up a debate it really is expected by right hon. and hon. Gentlemen in all parts of the House that there shall be some answer to the debate that has preceded it? As to next week's business, can he make it clear that if any Minister gets up and merely reads out a typewritten speech as an answer to a whole debate to which hon. and right hon. Gentlemen on both sides have made serious contributions, this will no longer be tolerated by the House?

Mr. Whitelaw

I am sorry that hon. Members have not been able to hear what I have been saying in the House. I will try to talk a little louder. Of course, the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Liberal Party makes an absolutely unexceptionable statement as to what is the normal practice in winding-up debates. I do not know why he should make general statements of that order. I would not accept the implication as far as any of my hon. and right hon. Friends are concerned, but I would certainly hope to ensure that Members of all parts of the House spend their time during debates being strictly relevant to the subject under discussion.

Mr. Maclennan

On a point of order. I distinctly heard the Leader of the House say that he would spend his time seeing that Members of Parliament kept in order. I would be grateful to have your advice if this is a new function of the Leader of the House.

Mr. Speaker

Mr. Speaker is glad to receive help from time to time from anyone. He is worried only when he receives hindrance from either an hon. or right hon. Member.

Mr. Russell Kerr

Can the right hon. Gentleman indicate when the House will have an opportunity of debating the historic Report of the Select Committee which inquired into the affairs of the Bank of England?

Mr. Whitelaw

I cannot give any undertaking on that at present, but I realise the importance of the House having the opportunity to debate the important Select Committees' Report. I very much hope that when it debates them, Members on both sides of the House who were not on the Select Committees will take part in the debates and show the Committees that the House as a whole is interested in their reports.

Mr. English

Reverting to the question of the Leader of the Liberal Party, the right hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe), would the right hon. Gentleman explain why one of his colleagues last night stated that he was addressing himself to industry when most of us thought that he was addressing himself to the House?

Mr. Speaker

We cannot have an inquest on what took place in a debate on another day.