§ 40 and 41. Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for the Environment (1) by what amount he intends to reduce the global amount of housing subsidies;
(2) whether, in order to allow rents to fall, he will expedite the return to free competition in the provision of housing.
§ 58. Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will maintain existing housing subsidies; and if he will now make a statement.
§ Mr. AmeryIn my right hon. Friend's statement on 3rd November, he outlined plans for the reform of housing finance. The effect of these plans on subsidies will be among the subjects which I shall discuss with the local authority associations.
§ Mr. HamiltonAs the Chancellor of the Exchequer suggested a floor of £100 million and a ceiling of £200 million, presumably there is a floor and a ceiling for the Scottish figures. May we have those figures? The Secretary of State rejected the suggestion from one of my hon. Friends that what the Government are doing would mean rents of up to 30 per cent. of income. Will the right hon. Gentleman say what figure he has in mind as a proportion of income which should be charged in rent? Further—[HON. MEMBERS: "Too long."] My second Question is very different from the first. Since the Government's whole 1079 policy On prices—[HON. MEMBERS: "Too long."]—is to depend on competition to bring prices down, is it not the inference that there must be competition entirely in housing to bring rents down, and does not this show what nonsense the policy is?
§ Mr. AmeryI had some difficulty in catching all that the hon. Gentleman said, but I should hesitate to ask him to trespass on the time of the House by repeating it. On matters relating to Scotland, perhaps he will put a Question to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland. The question of detailed figures is a matter for negotiation with the local authorities, and I should not like to anticipate the result of these discussions. What was the hon. Gentleman's other point?
§ Mr. HamiltonI wanted the Scottish figures, and we should like them from the Secretary of State for Scotland.
§ Mr. HamiltonNo, Sir, I shall tell the right hon. Gentleman. What percentage of income payable in rent does he think is fair?
§ Mr. AmeryI have said that this must be a matter for discussion with the local authorities. I have no set views in my mind until I have been able to discuss it with them. I come now to the hon. Gentleman's third point, which he had forgotten. He asked what was fair and what was not fair. This is something which we shall discover by discussion—[Laughter.]—with the local authorities, with the people most directly concerned, within the margins which we have set out.
§ Mr. AllaunYesterday the Secretary of State for the Environment told us that the subsidies totalled £190 million a year, and I think that included Scotland. We were also told that they would be reduced by approximately £150 million a year. Surely the Minister agrees that one need not be a mathematical genius to realise that this will reduce subsidies to £40 million a year plus any increase for houses built, if they are built, between now and 1975. Does not this mean a drastic acceleration of the decline in council house building which has already taken place?
§ Mr. AllaunNot at all.
§ Mr. AmeryWe are not making savings on present housing subsidies. We are making savings on the subsidies that would have been payable in 1974–75, which would have risen to £310 million. At the moment they are £166 million. There will, therefore, be a saving of between £100 million and £200 million on £310 million. We are not going to a system of total free competition. This would be quite wrong in view of the housing shortage in a number of the most important conurbations.
§ Sir G. NabarroIs it not a fact that, whereas housing subsidies may decline substantially, rent subsidies will increase substantially? At this juncture is not any estimate carried out statistically pure conjecture as it is impossible to ascertain exactly what will be the precise circumstance of every family in the land two, three or four years from now, the overwhelming majority of whom will be vastly better off under this Government?
§ Mr. AmeryOn this matter, as so often on others, I find myself in total agreement with my hon. Friend.
§ Mr. FreesonWill the Minister confirm that the biggest single contribution to the stabilisation of council house rents arises not so much from subsidies as from historic cost-rent pooling, a system which will be abolished according to the statement made yesterday by his right hon. Friend?
§ Mr. LawsonAre we to understand from the Minister's remarks that subsidies being paid in respect of houses already built, or in process of building, will be respected and that there will be no renegotiation downwards of those subsidies?
§ Mr. AmeryThe hon. Gentleman will realise that most of the subsidies are no longer being applied to the dwellings for which they are payable, because local authorities pool rents and subsidies.
§ Mr. HefferWill the right hon. Gentleman cut through all this flapdoodle and tell us in precise terms what percentage 1081 of council house tenants will now get an increase in their rents and by how much, and what percentage of those already being assisted by the policy of the Labour Government will get some assistance?
§ Mr. AmeryThe Government believe in consulting the local authorities. If the hon. Gentleman cares to put down a Question—
§ Mr. HefferGive us some figures.
§ Mr. AmeryThe Government believe in consulting the local authorities. If the hon. Gentleman would care to put down a Question when those consultations are completed, I shall be glad to give him an answer.
§ Mr. HamiltonOn a point of order. In view of the extremely unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment, and that it will be addressed to the Secretary of State for Scotland, if only to find out whether he can still speak.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. Even the hon. Gentleman's Adjournment notice is too long.